#1 INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE l. Have you decided upon a college major? Yes Ifyes, what? History and Journalism 2. (Ifthe answer to question 1 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GPA) in your major field? I don't know. 3. What type ofdegree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? Bachelor of Arts, 2 BAs] 4. What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? Well, I want to go to graduate school ?? get my master's in Business Administration and History, and then ultimately I want to do law. Did you say you want to go the graduate school after some time off? No, graduate school will be my time off. Right after I finish W&L I'm going to graduate school. From graduate school to law school. I don't want to go the law school straight. 5. Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your undergraduate program? yes 6. While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? yes Ifyes, please give the denomination, and the type ofchurch activities in which you participated. I was a Sunday School teacher in a Catholic Church. I tutored ...... How would you characterize your church involvement in Lexington? I attend a Baptist church now, because my mother switched over to Baptist religion. But I didn't claim I changed. I'm not Catholic anymore, I'm just basically going to church -gospel way(?). I just attend there sometimes when I have a chance. 7. How would you compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? I was never too into extra-curricular activities in my high school, so I guess basically the same. A little bit less because I'm not that interested in extra-curricular activities. It's not drastic, because I was never too into that. 8. How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? My college counselor At the high school? Uh-huh.??? or something. Oh really, what was his name? Kenneth Cavanaugh, I don't know??, probably Cavanaugh 9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? Not at all. 10. Didyou visit the campus before you matriculated as a student? Yes Ifyes, under what circumstances? Prospective Student -in March, I believe -the open house. Prospective Student Weekend? Yes Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. Well, that was one ofthe reasons why I came here. I had so much fun. The prospectives program -that's one of the best things for black students coming here. Is there a particular black students weekend, prospective weekend? No. You just came on a regular weekend, but the other black students took good care ofyou? Yes, usually that's what happens. The black students try to encourage them to come here. We usually tell them the downfalls, but you know it's like we .... even though the black students around here are not.. .... anyway. That's one of the best things. And I had fun, you know. What was the weekend like? What did you do? Well, we went to a fraternity party. We basically just sat around and talked, got to know each other, cause we were all from different places and we just clicked; it was just like a bond ... They were acting like they were big sisters. It was just nice. How many ofyou were there that were getting together? Well, I think it was like around maybe 10 black students came at once, like 6 girls. So 6 girls andyour sponsors -what do they call these kids? Prospectives -well, we are the prospectives. Hosts?? 10a. Was W&Lyour... last choice 1Ob. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... I would say 3 or 4. 1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? all of them Really, but you went here even though it was your last choice? Yeah, it was only because of the financial reasons. So you got better assistance here? Well, I mustn't say only because the prospective weekend -I had a choice between two other schools I could have went to. After I came here as a prospective student, that's when I decided I wanted to come here because I really wanted to go my first choice -they didn't give any money. My mom said if that's what you want to do, go for it. The other one which I didn't visit, because their open house was right after W&L's and I said I'm not gonna go, so I don't change my mind ... 11. What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? I would say prospective weekend, #1 and financial reasons #2. Why don 't you scan this list and see if there 's anything else you haven 't though of The size of college was not really important. ..rankings ... not national magazines, cause I never heard of it. When I got here, my teachers were saying it was a very good school, things of that nature .. Your high school teachers were saying that? Uh-huh. Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? It sounds like you've covered that pretty well. 12. Once you decided to enroll at W&L, what was the reaction offriends and relatives? They were pretty happy. My mom was pretty happy. The school that I really wanted to go to was not giving me any money, and I decided to come here, so I guess everyone was pretty happy ­everyone was basically telling me to come here. After prospective weekend, it was .... Although other schools gave me assistance, I think Washington & Lee gave me --well, it's equal, but it has its advantages. Were there negative images about W&L that made you think seriously about not coming? Some of the experiences that the other black students told me about, but I just disregarded it, you know. I just say I'll come and find my own experience here. Could you elaborate on what those negative images were? Like racism, the diversity ofthe school, things ofthat nature. 13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? No. Do you want to elaborate on that? It was not. Ok, my freshman year, I had a great year. I had fun, you know. Academically, it was not as easy as I thought. I was prewarned, but you know it was definitely as easy as I thought. I did not study as hard as I should have. It was not exactly what I expected. I didn't come and do exactly what I expected to do. I expected to study a lot harder that I did, which I didn't. Ifthe school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the campus, please describe how it differed. I think you just did that. Any other ways that we didn't cover? No. 14. Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. How have you dealt with it? Basically, little events that happen in the school -I'll tell you one. Well, my roommate, she was stealing from me. I didn't exactly know she was at first because, you know, roommate bonding, whatever. She found one ofmy checks -I had lent her like around $150 before since first semester. She never paid me back, but I never asked her for it. She found one of my checks. I was going to cash it because I didn't have any more money, I was going to put some more money in the bank. I told her I was going to do it. The next day I went to go look for the check exactly where I told her. It wasn't there. So then when I asked her, I said, "Katie ..... " She said no ..... She didn't have any money. So finally, she came and admitted "I took the check. I cashed it. I must have been sleep­walking or something." So she just walked out the room. I called her back later on. I said "What do you mean you must have been sleep-walking?" Then we had this big argument about everything else but the check. She tries to switch it off and then my whole suite was mad at me, because they believed that Katie wouldn't steal from me ...forging someone's signature was illegal. Everyone told that ifI took it to the Executive Committee, I would just be laughed at; it would be thrown out. That really hurt me, that no one believed me as far as she says she took the check and cashed it...forged the signature. She must have said that she forgot that she did it. After I asked her 5 minutes ago. Everyone was totally against me. Was this a racism ..... ? Everyone was basically looking at me like ... Were you the only black person involved? It was like little other things that would happen, like I would use their bathroom and they would put "Don't use the bathroom ..." little things they would say. Sometimes when they were drunk, that's when you would find out.. .... especially at fraternity parties, cause I used to go to a lot last year. I had so many experiences--niggers--when they're drunk, they'll say anything. That's when a lot of ugliness comes out. How have you dealt with it? I basically, I don't go to fraternity parties as much. Last year I was a lot more hyper and louder, I just grew up a lot.. . .I just didn't get involved as much. I try to stay within my own range I would like you to describe a little bit more. You gave me a really good example ofracism andyou mentioned the way little things come up. I'd like to get a little bit better idea ofwhat you mean by racism. Like define it or describe it a little bit better. It's a word that comes up a lot but I don 't know. People might mean different things. OK, like one time there was a party outside. We were at a fraternity party. Everyone thinks it's just talking. We were talking to these guys, then it turned into arguments. These guys came -oh, you're making noise. There's party right across -a whole entire fraternity party. He came exactly to us. Oh, you're disturbing me from sleeping. He grabbed my friend in a choke-hold and it's like the whole fraternity not even 5 feet away from us, and we're the one making noise. Even though security automatically comes to us. It's true we do have other altercations before, but it's like he automatically came to us, you know .... So you feel singled out? One time my friend was walking down the colonnade and she's white. It was like, why do you hang out with all these niggers? So ... People weren't..... No, they weren't. She didn't even know the person. But they always see her with black people. It's hard for her .. .it's the first time, coming here, whoever inviting for her friendship, that's the person she goes to. It's not traumatic here, but it's here. A lot of people, when they hear that I go to Washington and Lee .... are you crazy? In the south--but it's not as bad, but it's challenging. It's just a funny feeling that you get sometimes. Yeah, bummer. 15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? First year, well first semester, I would say it was terrible. My high school was definitely better than Washington and Lee, but then again I'm in college, but--1 feel like Washington and Lee, it's challenging. Different things. So you 're saying it hasn 't been as good, but the biggest crisis was at the beginning. My first year, my first semester. Pulled up ever since. Now it's basically rising. 16. What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? I use the library. I used a tutor before. Was it a tutor in a particular department? Uh-huh. I visited professors a lot, visiting professors helps a lot. That's one of the good things about Washington and Lee. Computer facilities I never use. I have my own computer. I did once, though. Study groups, no. I never could get involved in a study group. Usually there's not a black in a study group. I just never get involved in that. Because ofyou, your feeling or because ... No, I don't know, I just never-­ It just doesn 't happen. It just doesn't happen. There's one more thing we haven't listed here yet which is there apparently are ... . study skills courses offered through the dean's office which I justfound out about. Dean McCloud? It's through that office, but I don't know specifically.. are you aware ofanything? ...Dean McCloud, she just hands out a pamphlet and then I got something in the mail about study skills. I don't know. I don't really think that---ifl study, I get the grades that I want. Simple. When I know--when I go into a test and I don't know it, if I just skimmed over it, I know what I'm going to get cause I know what I remember. So basically---the only thing I can really improve is writing. You haven't used the writing center? No, not really. Do you have suggestions for the development ofthese or other facilities? No, not really. 17. What factors contribute or contributed to your selection ofa major course ofstudy? Last year I fell in love with history, even though I didn't do well, because I didn't study at all---at all. I basically came out with decent grades, but I know I didn't learn anything .... I really did like it. So it's mostly preference. Preference. What about journalism? Journalism, I took a course in it--preference. For both ofthem. Is it also looking forward to preparing-­ Law school. I know there's going to be a lot of writing in both those majors. So that will help me prepare. Good. 18. Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? Ifyes, please describe that change. Yes, I first came in as a Bio major, but that's definitely not for me. I'm glad you found that out early. 19. Ifyou saw a person or group ofpersons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as an honor violation? Please elaborate. Probably not. Because I just probably wouldn't most likely report it. It's like, why would I put myself through all that stress. I don't think they're going to believe me. I wouldn't do it. So it's mostly because it would be really difficult for you and you 're not confident that you'd be believed. Like my roommate, I could have took her to the EC, cause she signed my check. That's like--she talked to someone in the EC ... she couldn't do anything with it, so ..no. That's not my problem. You 're not into looking out for other people's stuff, you 're just covering your own. Ifsomeone steals, ifI see you stealing, I'm not gonna take you to EC. Ifyou piss me off enough, if you do something directly to me and you curse me out afterwards, then do something. But if I see you stealing, and you know I've seen you stealing and you just try to frame me up or just try to act like I didn't see, I'm not going to report it. Most likely I won't. How would you handle it? Ifsomeone was stealing, I'll stop them from stealing. Ifsomeone was cheating, that's definitely not my business. That's just a person cheating. It's not an honor violation not to tell, so just not. 20. Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to approach? Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. Some professors are easy to approach, when they have like a friendly attitude in class. That's basically how I feel with approaching professors. If they don't, then I just try to figure it out on my own. So it's personal style. Personal. Kind ofchemistry between you and them. I approach a lot of my professors when I really need help. Sometimes it's too late, but I do. I'm not afraid of approaching them. Have you been able to establish close working relationships with a member or with members ofthe W&Lfaculty? Other than you, I'd say that's the only person -oh, and DeMaria in Journalism. Like today, when I really needed help ..... advice. Good, I'm glad you feel that way. That's what makes me happy. 21. What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? Terrible. Want to elaborate on that? The social life here is definitely not for me. That's one ofthe things I would change in a second. That's one ofthe things I would .... At first it was .... .I was so depressed here that I really didn't care, but then it's like things change. The social life here, it's not healthy for a black person--my personal opinion. I'm not used to going to school with all white people. I'm used to going to school with all black. The diversity was good for me. But not here, like if it was white and black mixed, it would be good. I'm always the shining star, everything. Sometimes when professors talk about blacks, anything about blacks, anything about welfare with blacks involved, anything about crime or gangs, people look at me as if they want me to say something. It's like, I'm just sitting here learning, just like you. Sometimes, little ways professors say things, I feel offended by. I don't say anything about it. Take a deep breath. You get into real debates in class, sometimes that you don't have enough people to support you. The majority is against you, so you just... So what is it about social life, you said it's something you would change in a minute. What would you change about it? Be more specific. Diversity. So that's the specific thing that isn't healthy for a black person? Everyone looks to you as if, you know--1 won't say everyone cause there's a lot of nice people here. Definitely a lot of nice people, but it's basically, everyone feels like ... either here because of affirmative action or --1 don't know. Diversity, I would say. How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? Last year it was very important. This year it's not. How important to you are drugs at a social event? Not important at all. 22. What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? Just basically I would go to their fraternity parties. I pledged Alpha Phi Omega--that' s a service fraternity. Are you still active with them? No. I wanted to but as far as working at Walmart. I quit there, so that's going to be a different thing for me. I just want to work ...on my grades this semester and just keep making them. Do you have a work study also? No. So you were working, but now you 're just not going to work and study. Oh, I'm gonna work in the dining hall, but I can basically work out my own schedule. When I want to work, I work. They have as much hours as I want to work--the most hours I work in a week is 20 hours anyway. They've given me as much as I need like 23. They're involved with the school--they know I'm a student and I can't always work. So you pledged Alpha Phi Omega but you haven't been active & it's because you were working? Do you think you might get active more again? Definitely. I think I'm going to pledge again this year. I don't have to repledge actually, just get active this semester because I have more time. Could you describe your experiences with them? I really didn't have that much, just basically the meetings. So there wasn't anything negative that would hold you back from going? Oh, no, definitely not. They're very friendly people. Sometimes they get a little pressed, forcing you actually rather than allowing you .. To what? To do some service? Not to do some service. Like in the meetings. I understand it's important, but it's like come, come, come. Ok, I'm gonna come if I can. I know I'm aware ofthe meeting and I'm coming. Basically they're twisting my arm. 23. Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. I never took any physical education classes. I'm taking swimming this semester which I'm a sophomore ..... but athletic teams, I go to the basketball games. I was .... one before I came here. I'm pretty team spirited, school spirit oriented. Athletic facilities, I use the gym when I want. Working out? I do work out. Do you play basketball at all? Uh-uh. I don't play any sports. 24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? Oh, I just don't date. Is that because ofopportunities or choices? Oh, choice. I'm not too into interracial dating. The black guys here are basically my friends and you know, they're just like big brothers to me. I don't find any of them attractive. 25. Have you ever considered transferring from Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yes Why? Because I was depressed, the diversity, I was missing home, and I stayed over the summer. I was just missing my family, missing being home cause I did not go home like for a year. I don't know why. You didn 't go home at all? I went home once, well twice during the summer, but it's like a day, a family reunion, then came back. ...... Another reason was the grades I'm getting here. People that graduated underneath me in high school are doing way better than me in other colleges. Their college is not ranked as high, or you know they're like state or just barely private, private but you know. But this gets me aggravated, you know.... but it's just so much easier there by just looking at their homework, it disgusts me. They can get 3 30's on tests and still get an A in the class, it's like not possible. That was one of the reasons, but I ... study hard and basically get my grades up. Ifyes, whatfactor(s) influenced you to stay? I was thinking about transferring. This is a very good school, ranked high, financially I'm ok here. I do have good close friends .... that's about it. It's a good school. Basically, academically it's a good school and I'm learning a lot, so, that's why I'm here. 26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? Yes, catering. Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? No. Does it influence your level ofsatisfaction with your life, feeling about yourselfor does it distract you from things or anything like that? No. When I was working, it was purely whenever I wanted to do it, like sign-up. Catering was like anytime you wanted to do it. So you do it to help yourselffinancially? Financially. 27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. Right now, if anyone in my family wanted to come here, I would not recommend them to and I would not get on the phone and recruit anyone for the school, because I'll be lying. In the future, which I know I'll enjoy the school a lot more when I graduate. I've grown up a lot here, cause I started here when I was 16, so .. I turned 17 in the summer. Maybe after I've graduated, but right now, no. I would definitely host prospective students because I do want to have a good time here ... Are your reasons mostly because you don'tfeel good about recommending it? No, it's not a healthy environment for someone to especially be away for the first time, coming here is just not healthy. It's not inviting enough. Now we ask some background information: 28. In what geographical location did you grow up: New York City In what type ofarea or community did you spend most ofyour growing up years? Was it all in New York City? So it was urban? Uh-huh, urban. Where in the city? Queens. 29. Describe the type ofhigh school you attended. Urban Predominantly Black Were there any white folks in there at all? No. I think there was one white girl. I think she had cancer. No--there was something weird about her. But I don't know if she was white. She could have been white. Russian. She was still white, I guess, but just yellow. I don't know if she was white, but no. There was a lot of Hispanics, but that's the same thing. Please give the kin relationship(s) between you and family members in your home when you were growmg up. 31. What was the highest level ofeducation achieved by your parents, guardians, or others with whom you lived when you were growing up? My mother finished college and my dad, he got his associates degree. What are the occupations or professions ofyour parents or guardians? My mom is a nurse and my dad, I don't know. We're not together .. He doesn't live with you? No. 32. As compared to other W &L students, how would you characterize your overall social class position (based on parents' education and family income)? My mother's not working now anyway, cause she had an injury, so basically we're pretty poor, I guess. I don't know--comfortable, I guess. Compared to other W&L students? No, compared to other W&L students, we're poor. Just poor ... the majority, we're poor. But compared to other folks in Queens, not necessarily. Oh,no. How do you think this has affected your experience? It hasn't. Because a lot of times, they're rich, and they're just cocky, like you know it's arrogant, but that's another reason the diversity is just.. ... recruit poor people, but you know they're just rich and cocky, but they think every black person here is on aid. Which most black people are on aid, but.. So that's another aspect oflack ofdiversity ..... social position. So how did that affect your experience? It didn't really. 33. In general how do you think about yourselffirst at Washington and Lee -­as a member ofa particular racial/ethnic/national/gender group, or as a student? I definitely consider myself black before anything. I'm a black student. Black first, student second. Please explain. Do you want to say anything more about that? Uh-uh. 34. How homogeneous do you believe black students are on this campus? In answering please consider racial identification, political perspective, and/or social class position. The way we stand for this school, I'll say definitely the majority is all alike. Everyone complains about the same things ....In the beginning of these questions, you really have to ask truthfully, tell the truth, cause it's going to be like totally secret, because the majority of the students do not like it here. Everyone wants to like just basically get out. That's the whole purpose. It's really important to do interviews like this, so the university has a chance ofknowing what's really going on. Because a lot oftimes they don't think about the .... the black thing. Honestly tell the truth .. .if you sit at the table with them, like we don't always stay stick together, what we do is complain about the school thing, how much we hate it, how much we wish we weren't here. Everyone says it's a good school, we'll get ajob----­ Common conversation. Well, you could actually help this process by letting people know that you had this interview and let them know that you think it's a good idea .... none ofyou are being identified at all. Nobody will know who said what, and so no one's threatened by it. It's a great opportunity to make a difference. One ofthe reasons it's being done is because ofthings that we've heard and didn't know enough about, what people meant when they said them. Great chance. People will read it and they will care. 35. How similar or different do you believe blacks and whites are on this campus? Consider the same categories that are mentioned in number 40 above and add any other factors that you deem important. Those categories were racial identification, political perspective, you didn't mention that about the black students actually, social class position. Most ofthe black students are democratic or independent. Hardly ever Republican -if there are, I just don't know about it. Politically, we're very different.. .... we stand for different.. . .like welfare and the black community, sometimes we're liable to want that more. Far as affirmative action, definitely we want that more than white males or white females, although they're involved in that too, but to a certain extent different. So politically quite different. Quite different. I think the black students and the white students see tnemselves quite different on this answer. Exceptfor a few kids you've mentioned. 36. Do you believe the size ofthe black student enrollment at Washington and Lee is adequate or inadequate? It's inadequate, but the majority of black students don't want to come to Washington and Lee. Simple. They can recruit as much as they want, but the majority ofblack do not want to come here. It's not for them. So--it's inadequate but I don't think there's much they can do about it. Do you believe the number ofblack professors is adequate or inadequate? Inadequate, because we only have one real professor here. Do you believe the number ofblack administrators is adequate or inadequate? Explain. Inadequate, because we only have, I believe right now, one black dean. Inadequate. Do you want to elaborate on that? Because in .... administrative jobs, the black people are not in there. Period. It's not a lot of--if there was more administrative black people, I think we would all feel more comfortable going to someone else. I don't feel like--Dean McCloud, she's good to go to, but it's not only Dean McCloud I want to talk to. Ifl had someone else, because Dean McCloud, sometimes it's like, what's the point? You know....Definitely need more black administrators. Andprofessors? Definitely, more black professors. Whoever's good for the job, that's, you know--ifyou can't find a black professor that suits your needs, don't hire anyone because he's simply black. 37. Should the university offer activities designed to bring new black students together? Yes, definitely. Do you have any suggestions? If we charter a black sorority or fraternity ...but we're probably not large enough to do so. Have a social event to bring black students together. We do have the Chavis House, but--if we could make the house, like expand the Chavis House or have a bigger house for more black students to live together. Because I live in Chavis House now. I live with three other guys. It's only a four bedroom place. It's a big house with four bedrooms. A lot more people would want to live there if it had more bedrooms. Since I moved there, I've been a lot closer to the black students who actually come there. Do many people come there? Not that many. I'm not going to say that. But the people who do come there, I've become a lot closer. What do folks come there to do? Do they come there to study? Study. Do you eat together ... ? No. Study, hang out. And this is specifically to bring new black students together? They 're perhaps thinking in terms of freshmen in the question. Do you have any suggestions for that? Not really. 38. Do you believe that it is important that courses in the humanities/social sciences include recognition or study ofworks by persons ofcolor? Definitely. Ifyou think works by persons ofcolor should be included do you think the recognition was adequate, inadequate, or excessive? Please explain. Because a lot oftimes, someone--a German person or black person does something, you would like to know who did that. Being a history major, studying what happened and who did, that's basically what it all boils down to for me. As far as African American courses, like most schools have an African American major, African American studies, it's not only African American groups that would study it. Other people will study it. Most African American courses are --we do have here usually fill up pretty fast. That goes to show that we should definitely have an African American-­as far as just having enough African American courses that maybe you can--a petition to have it, to have it your major. There's not even enough to petition to have it your major, cause we don't have enough. Enough students? No, we don't have enough courses that are available to petition for it to be a major. So you would like to see more courses that are specifically African American contents. And definitely read more books by African American authors. Within other disciplines? Uh-huh, other disciplines. So you don 't think it was adequate, you think it was inadequate. Inadequate. 39. How would you characterize the climate in the classroom for you [ as a black student]? Very edgy, especially when they begin to talk about anything that has to do the black community or black poverty, black violence -and then there's a professor that I have right now, it's just so uncomfortable. It's not like he says anything directly, it's just the way he says it. Every black student who ever had him says the same thing. It's just like the way he says things. You know you can't go by .... you can just feel it.. ....It'sjust so uncomfortable to be the only black person in the classroom and have no one ... black also so they understand. You're just like the shining star and it's just the worst thing I think. The feeling that you 're getting from this particular person is that he's uncomfortable about it? Is that what you 're saying? No, it's more like the down talk. I don't know what it is--it's not a comfortable situation. It's definitely not doing it for positive ... .it' s more of a down talk or something ofthat nature. He's a jerk-excuse me---sounds like you 're saying. Ifyou have encountered 'problems in the classroom, how have you dealt with those difficulties? Professors or overall students? This question is about the climate in the classroom, you as a black student. I haven't really encountered much of a problem in the classroom. Other people have, but I haven't really. It's just that edgy feeling Edgy feeling. Sometimes someone debates over something you really believe in, there's no one else to back you up. But other than that... So how do you deal with that when that happens? I just argue as much as I can--it's time to change the topic. 40. What is the role ofthe Office ofMinority Student Affairs? What office is this? Dean McCloud 's office. That is ajoke--a simple joke. There's nothing. No power, can't help you with anything--ajoke. That office is so fake. It's just there to put up a front cause nothing, nothing--far as something happen to a black student, a minority student go to that office, it's basically nothing. That office is nothing. You have to go someplace else. You have to go to exactly the same office that any other student would have to go to .......... any other student, no color, no race, nothing ... just go to someplace else that can handle the business. That office is a joke. A lot of black students think it's a front, Dean McCloud is just a front, just to have someone there. They feel like someone deliberately set it up to be? No, probably not deliberately. That's what it's there for now. How can the role ofthis Office be improved? I don't really know how. When a black student has a problem, that the person who's there in the office supposedly to help you can actually help you and represent you far as the case, you know. The person who holds that job needs to be the kind ofperson who-­ Who can at least represent you, not to defend you, not even take your side, just represent you. Actually go to the person--go to another dean and actually talk to the dean and tell him this problem the person has and this problem the person has--just don't send you out there to do the same thing you could have done before you walked in the office. It's more---seems like they're afraid to be bold and outspoken. So you would like to see the person who has that job- Be more bold and outspoken -that can help more. Basically not always smiling, you know, it'll be ok, because it'll never change then. 41. From whom do you receive the greatest emotional support on campus? Do not use name(s), but please describe the person(s) in terms ofrace, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and position (i.e. fellow student, faculty member, administrator, staffmember). Ifappropriate, include more than one individual and describe the type ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support (i.e. personal, family, religious, etc.) Mostly they're my black friends ....I have a close black friend that helps me out a lot. I would not even be here if it wasn't for her .....my black friends. Now I have made other friends this year, moving into ... House, some of the international black students. They're really close also. They're also considered blacks. One of them aren't black, she's Hungarian. She's also close. They're freshman, so they'll still be here when I graduate. My really close friend, she's graduating next year. If I didn't move into that house, I wouldn't have any friends left. All my friends would be graduating. So this way, you get a feeling that there will be people there for you while you 're still here? I talk to people, but as far as friendship, ... anything about me, they'll be graduating and I still have them. What about other categories ofpeople like faculty members or administrators or staffpeople? There aren't any faculty members I can actually say that can help me---at all. I did go see Dr. Worth once, the school psychologist--when I was really depressed. He helped me out a lot, but then I never went back to him. Just talking to someone else--he was very friendly, very open. Anyone with problems, whether black or white, go see Dr. Worth, because he's very open. His personality is more ... .I come to talk to you, you're open, friendly, it's just easy person to talk to. Describe the types ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support? Him, I just went the one time when I was depressed in October. So that was like a formal situation? A formal situation. Like, my other friends. Like, ifl'm having problems ..... .ifl'm having problems with my family, she usually knows about it. She's really close with my family now. I don't really have boyfriend problems .... So the types ofsituations where people are providing you support .. Personal and family problems. 42. Have you experienced any discriminatory behavior on campus directed against yourself? What form did that behavior take (written remarks including graffiti, spoken remarks, physical assault, discriminatory treatment). Spoken remarks. I've never been actually physically beaten or anything. Spoken Who was responsible for that behavior? Students, .... students, Greek students, sometimes faculty, not too much staff. Faculty and staff have not been involved. It does happen once in a while. But other than that.. Like unguarded remarks that people would make or something? Uh-huh. When it says Greek here, they mean student groups. Like you feel like there was discriminatory behavior. Who was responsible for that behavior? Individual students or groups ofstudents? Usually it's groups of students at a fraternity. Acting together when I'm at the fraternity house or something. Well, I wouldn't say groups. I would say individual students--cause, like, not the whole entire fraternity. It happens to be in a group setting, but they 're acting as individuals? Individuals. Leaving aside behavior, do you sense racial tensions on campus beyond what exists in the larger society? No, because one thing ..W&L, this is how basically life--I'm a minority in all aspects. In life I'm gonna be a minority ....I'm a minority in life, you know, as far as in the United States. So this is basically the way--it's not gonna have to be exactly the same setting, but basically the way it's gonna be out there .....My mother trying to tell me, you know, it will be good for you ifyou come down there, experience something, you know ...... not gonna be an all-black environment, so .. So you don't think it's more than exists in the larger society? No. Ifso, how do you think such tensions could be eased within W &L? No. 43. Aside from the Honor System do you believe that the student Executive Committee, the Student Conduct Committee or other University judicial committees treat black and white students equally fairly? I would say so, because I don't hear of too many black students getting caught for honor violations unfairly. I never heard of that before. Not really. Maybe discipline-wise. What do you mean? Far as, what I think, I'm gonna say security --security sometimes pre-judge, security leads to a problem sometimes here ....If a group of black people, like one time it happened to my friend. A group of black guys playing basketball, and they said "can I see your ID?" "I'm a student here." That's all you have to say, "I'm a student here. I'm a Washington and Lee student--that's my honor." "Can I see your ID?" So what is the problem? Security, I hate em. Anything off campus, totally away does not involve security. Security is definitely unfair. Most ofthe time. I didn't quite follow you when you said the things you do totally offcampus. Because I had a argument with someone off campus. They put a hole in my tire. Security decides to tell Dean Howison. What for? I'm a college student. Don't treat me like a child. Why do you tell my mother? That's why if I wasn't here, it would never happen. Large universities, they don't go back and tell your deans what you do. It's in the greater community. In the greater community. It's like, he's the dean of the school. That does not have anything to do with ... everyone's laughing, cause they treat you like children. My mother was just laughing. You don't come back and tell the dean what I did. So what? You think this is the way they behave with black people specifically. That surprises me, because there are some black security people, aren 't there? Yes, they're just as ..... well, there's two guys I don't like .... .I like. Just cause they're black doesn't mean they're on your side. Black doesn't mean that they're protecting you. It's just basically ... 44. Do you believe that the honor system is applied in an even-handed way to black and white students? Uh-huh. It's interesting to me that you said that for both ofthese questions that it's equally fair, but when you came up on a situation where you could have asked for help, you didn't because you felt like they wouldn 't believe you. That's true. I.. .contradict myself. I don't know ifyou 're contradicting yourself. You mean two different things. I do. If I was to go on honor violation--If someone was to say I--if somebody accused me of cheating, I believe that I would fight it to the fullest extent anyway. If I knew I wasn't cheating, I don't care what anyone says, whether it's one white person--their word is not gonna be better than mine, point blank ......that's it. Far as, it's like anyone else. Why would my word be better than hers. I'm not saying it's because of black thing, that's the reason why they wouldn't believe me. I just--the majority oftime, the honor code--it works, I guess, you know, but I don't know. Sounds like you feel more comfortable with a system ifyou were an accused person than ifyou have a complaint yourselfthat you want some help with. Definitely. 45. How would you evaluate student publications (i.e. the Ring-tum Phi, the Trident, etc.), the student radio and television stations with regards to opportunities for black students to participate. You can participate in all of this ifyou really want to .... black students participate. How would you evaluate them with regard to their treatment ofnews about black students? Black students? I would say fair. You haven't been frustrated with that? No. 46. Do you feel that black students at Washington and Lee today have problems that are basically different from, or basically similar to those ofwhites? Please describe in what way you feel they are different or similar. Definitely different. Black students here have problems. At least myself, we have problems on the lines socially, because we are the minorities here. Like we're not in a all black college, you know. Everyone is not like us; we're all different ethnically. Backgrounds are different. The majority of the black students we see come from around the same range, at least in comparison with the white students here. So it's definitely different. So--could you say more about that? The ways you feel in which their problems are different from your problems Their problems are more caught up into the Greek life and the majority of black students do not involve themselves in the Greek life. That's not our Greek life. Our Greek life is Delta Alpha (?). Our Greek life is totally different. Our sororities are totally different from their sororities. Their sororities are basically--the sororities have no purpose and it means nothing to me. It's just a pretty game you play, get dressed up. It's just retarded, just dumb to me. What are black women 's sororities like? We have more ....... activities in the community. All the sororities and fraternities across the country meet like maybe in Atlanta, GA one year or North Carolina--Greek fest. So it's like a lot of activities--we have like ... shows--we battle each other ..... .It's like so many different things .... Like here, basically they get dressed up, they go to meetings, they do service fraternities. We have to do a lot of service fraternities which involves so much ...... .It's so much effort. It doesn't look like fun to me at all. Thy guys fraternities seems a lot more better, even if it's basically all about drinking. It's different. Our fraternities and sororities--ours is better. So what other kinds ofproblems are different? That was socially. Academically. I wouldn't... I just wanted to be sure you covered what you need to say. Yeah, I did. *47. Sex F *48. Age? *49. Year in college? *50. Cumulative grade point average [as ofFall 1996}? 2.2 *51. How do you identify yourselfin terms ofnationality? Black My parents are Haitian. I'll say Haitian. My parents come from Haiti. Because that's your heritage? Heritage. A black person is not gonna ask me "Are you black?' or "Are you American?" I was born here, but my parents are Haitian. I just like the first American born here. 52. How do you identify yourselfin terms ofrace? Black. Some people would say African-American or Afro. Just black, it doesn't matter. 53. Are there additional comments you wish to make about any aspects ofWashington and Lee? Everything I really wanted to discuss is pretty much covered. Far as just the Minority Students Office is just terrible. It's just basically nothing for us. I'm not saying Dean McCloud is not doing her job, but not, no she's not. It's like, you just don't get any help there. See, I don't need you to say anything in particular but I need you to say whatever it is you need to say real clearly, so that when it's transcribed it's not ambiguous or confusing. I don't think the school does enough to make us feel comfortable here. No. My needs are not-­ What would make a difference? Black people, .... black administrators. At least 10%. The school has less than 3%. It's a very small school. At least 10% would be just enough--at least to have some black administration here to represent something. There's nothing here, no one's here. Sometimes they just don't want to stay here cause they're unhappy. It seems like--Dean McCloud, she's a dean but I guess she does not have the power to do anything ....give us tours or whatever, but after that, I don't see it. You go to any other dean, they'll see what they can do. So it's been your experience that other deans will go to bat for you. ... Housing .situation. I don't go to anyone but Dean Manning. Social situation, Dean Manning or Dean Howison. To give an overload, Dean Manning or one ofthe deans up here. What do I really need her to do? I'm not gonna sit here and talk my problems with her, because there's nothing I actually need her for other than getting tutors. That's just a little task. She links people with tutors? Anyone could do that. Just find a list oftutors and hook them up, then send them to the financial office to get paid. That's it. No power. Everyone says this. Everyone meaning who? Far as the black students, we all discussed it. They all just say it's ajoke...but­ So what would you like to see happen? Some type of power in that office. IfI need help or if I need something to get done I can actually go there for help, which you cannot. Ifthere's a problem with housing, Dean Manning takes care of that. You can't go over there for help .. .! understand that. Everyone's got their position, but some things she can help. What's the point of having her there if it doesn't help you with anything? There's no point.