#12 INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE 1. Have you decided upon a college major? Yes, I have. Ifyes, what? History. 2. (Ifthe answer to question 1 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GPA) in your major field? About 3.4. 3. What type of degree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? BA X BS [ science or commerce] 4. What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? I belive teaching, but if not, I might go on to graduate school for business majors. Okay, so you 're thinking about teaching at the high school level? Yes. 5. Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your undergraduate program? yesX no maybe Even ifyou go into teaching, you think? Yes. 6. While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? Yes/ No Ifyes, please give the denomination, and the type of church activities in which you participated. Yes and no. Earlier I was, but when I moved to Florida, I wasn't. --United Methodist. Choir, acolyte, pretty much everything they did I was part of it. How old were you when you moved to Florida? 9. How would you characterize your church involvement in Lexington? I attend church here every once in a while --the Methodist Church on Nels on St. here. Do you just on Sunday's or do you sometimes ---? Just on Sundays, yeah. 7. How would you compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? Very, very active. A lot of sports, club activities, FCA -­ What's that? Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Habitat for Humanity, those types of things. Here or in high school? Here, I haven't had a chance to get into Habitat, but FCA yeah. So, it's about the same level or a little less here at W &L? I'd say a little less just because of the school work and I don't have much time. 8. How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? W&L literature W&L admissions counselor Relative Adult friend Peer Other -I really didn't know about it at all because I was at another school first and then --word of mouth, basically. Actually, a couple of people I knew because of my situation and they knew I wanted to look for another school and this was the one that popped up. People from home that knew about--? Home and other schools and people I talked to regularly. 9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? I wasn't at all. 10. Did you visit the campus before you matriculated as a student? I visited in the summer time before I came. If yes, under what circumstances? I came with a VMI graduate who had family in town, he brought me up from the other school. He lives in Florida and he drove up to pick me up from my other school and brought me up here for the weekend. Stayed for the whole weekend. Visited on your own Participated in the Summer Scholar's Program Visited during a Prospective Student Weekend Other: Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. I thought it was a nice campus. One of the security guards, in fact, opened up some of the buildings for us, the gym, and let us walk around a little. My first impressions was that it was a real nice campus, real nice people. Nobody was here, because it was summer time. I did get to meet Robert Taylor because he was in the dorm --in Gaines, walking around and so I talked to him for a while. 10a. Was W&L your ... First choice Second choice Third choice Less than third choice Well, like I said, I went to another school first and transferred here . I had a couple of school on my list when I was going to transfer and this one was first because of the location. First out of three. This is the area I wanted to be in at first when I decided to go to college. Where did you live before you went to Florida? Cleveland, Ohio. 1Ob. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... No other One Two Three Four Five X Six or more 1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? None One Two Three Four FiveX Six When you were aiming to transfer? Yes. 11. What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? Relatives wanted you to come here Teacher advised you Good academic reputation Good social reputation Offered financial assistance Offers special programs you wanted Tuition lower than similar colleges High school guidance school counselor advised you Private college counselor advised you Wanted to live near home Friend suggested attending Recruited by college representative Recruited by athletic department Graduates go to top graduate schools Graduates get good jobs Religious affiliation or orientation Size of college Not accepted anywhere else Rankings in national magazines Like I said, I came here to visit and I knew some people in town, the location and everything, and than basketball. Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? I thought it was a challenge. My mom used to tell me all the time, she looked at the repetition of the school and the name, and --you know, Robert E. Lee, I thought it would be a challenge to come here and see if it was really like people said it was. What did they say it was like? Well, there were a lot of negatives from people I knew, just from being a black student. And the small town was another negative thing. I'd never go to school in a small town. So, there were a couple of things that were kind of like a challenge to me, to see if I could go and adapt and see if I could make a difference. Who were the people who were saying these negative things --the people that you knew? Yeah, my mom was one. She wasn't saying anything negativ~ about the school necessarily, but she was worried about the situation I was going to step into. My aunts. But I heard some good things from people who went to my school --my high school who had gone here --and the people in town that I knew. Scott Anderson, he goes here now --I grew up with him. So, it was those people I knew that had attended here and who liked it. So, I heard positive and negative. Didyou get any negatives from people who had been here or were here at the time? No, I really hadn't. 12. Once you decided to enroll at W &L, what was the reaction of friends and relatives? Were there negative images about W &L that made you think seriously about not coming? They were behind me. It was my choice and they were behind me 100%. I seriously thought about the small size of the school, the number of black students here, and actually being in a small town. Those are things that made me really think about whether I wanted to come here. My desire for a change in schools --and this looked like one that would give me a fresh start and a good school, so I decided that I would --that outweighed the negatives and I could make up for the rest of it. 13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? Yes and no. The negatives and the positives were both there. Sometimes there were a little more of the negatives that I see now that I'm here, but also there are a lot more of the positives. There are some things that I would have expected to be negative when I came in, and that I see now that they were really as bad as people had said. Like what? I thought maybe the faculty would be one area where you might see some of the more negatives, being a small school, and being one of the few blacks on campus. I heard a lot of the teachers here were kind of rough, but then I met a lot of faculty members, especially in the admissions office like Dean Kozak --I love her to death and she's one of the nicest people I know on campus ­-and she treats me real nice and looks out for me, you know, anytime something bad comes up, so that was a shock -you know, that people would actually go out of their way to help. Did you expect people to be prejudiced --faculty? I didn't expect them to be necessarily prejudiced, but I didn't think that anybody would step up --take the extra step to help me out. You know, they might see the situation, I didn't think anybody would go further than that. I'm impressed with that. My coach has also done that. If the school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the campus, please describe how it differed. Some of the things that I thought wouldn't be an issue --well, like my high school was real small with black population and I dealt with a lot of white students all through that, and when I got here I thought I could deal with it, but the fact about the confederate flag --I used to see that back home, but here it almost meant like more to some of the students and you run into a couple of bumps and bruises in that situation. Some people don't want to change. I've seen that and that's something I have a hard time with. Tell me about the bumps and bruises. Well, like the old South Day --I don't know about that. Well, it's supposed to be a day on campus where some of the fraternities, like KA and SAE, really try to celebrate the past and go as far as --not while I've been here, but I've been told by other black students that they went out and hired townies to pick cotton in front of their fraternity houses and that's the kind of things where --you know, it would drive you crazy. You know, I can't believe people are still doing that kind of thing. I mean, you know George Washington and Robert E. Lee, they~re both famous Americans, and you remember them, but there are some things that happened, that they did, that weren't necessarily good and you don't have to harp on those things, and I think sometimes the school glorifies those things. I think the students do it and I think the school knows about it and allows those things to happen, and doesn't lay their hand down on them. 14. Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. How have you dealt with it? I think it's just the fact that being a black man on campus here where there's not that many of us and having the opportunity to socialize with people from different walks of life and everywhere across the country, and some of the wealthier people in the country. Whites that might not have had the opportunity to meet with black people before and getting to know them --I mean, some people will breakdown and love you and some people you will have to really get at them, you know, and try to make that connection. That's been a big challenge for some of the people I've won over and people that have won me over. So, I think that's been my biggest challenge. I mean, when I came here I wasn't the greatest person and there were some people I thought had certain ways, that I would never adapt to, but when I got to know them, and actually hang out with them, they kind of won me over to their side. Some white people have certain asumptions about blacks that weren't true and would interact from there, and the same thing works for us. How have you dealt with that? What was your main approach? You have to get out and talk to people. You can't just see somebody on campus and look at them and make your assumption. You have to get out and talk to people. That's something I don't have a problem with. I love to talk to people and being active and I believe that's what helps you. Eveybody on my basketball team is from a different fraternity and so every weekend, I can go anywhere I want to and talk to people. So, as long as you're talking to people and there's open communication, you'll be able to work things out. That's one of the positives. 15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? I've had to step up my work ethic. That's one of the things I begged the school for. You know, I was in a tough high school but I could breeze through some things and at my other college, it was a tough school, and I didn't actually apply myself as much as I needed to, but I could always get over it, but when I first came here, I kind of slid a little bit and that didn't work, so I've had to step up my work ethic. That's helped me a lot and my grade have started to come up and I expect them to rise even higher. 16. What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? Just about everything they have to offer. Undergraduate library X Science library Computer facilities. X Writing Center. Tutors in the disciplines. X Study groups. Public lectures on academic subjects. Language lab. X Visiting professors in their offices. X Study skills courses Do you have suggestions for the development ofthese or other facilities? Tutors -I had to have a tutor in calculus and it was kind of tough to get a tutor. They did come up with an hour where there would be one person in a room that I could come to, but that got kind of hectic because a lot of times we'd have a test on Tuesday, and you might not have one until Friday, but you couldn't get there to talk to the tutor because everybody else was in there asking questions. In the Math Department they have a hard time with tutors. They need more. 17. What factors contribute or contributed to your selection of a major course of study? I've wanted to be a history major for a long time. Education has always been one of the things that I've looked into. My mother is a principal now and I've always had a strong educational push. I'm interested in history, I've always loved history. Promise ofearning a handsome salary after graduation, Interest in the particular academic discipline, College friends recommended this major, Adult relative recommendation etc. Other 18. Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? Ifyes, please describe that change. No. 19. Ifyou saw a person or group of persons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as an honor violation? Please elaborate. Yes, I would. I think this school thrives on the honor code. I think some things are kind of small infractions, you know, like picking up something that you didn't know belonged to someone else, so that thing I might let slide, but some of the bigger things, I think definitely people at this school try to teach what's right and what's wrong. 20. Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to approach? Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. I've had --a lot of my teachers -­they say their office hours are these and they are always available, but you might go talk to them and they're kind of off. It's almost like they're not open to all your questions. So, sometimes it's hard to talk to them. But I've also had teachers that --you know, you write a paper and they will say, please come talk to me --I got a good grade on a paper and come talk to me whenever, next semester, stop by the office some time. I like the openess that some of the teachers have. Like one time one of my teachers called me in after the semester and asked me to stop by the office some time and he sat me down and gave me about a 5 minute lecture about what I need to do and he was helping me out. I think they have your best at concern and they try to be open to us. I guess it's hard for a student/teacher relationship sometimes. Have you been able to establish close working relationships with a member or with members of the W &L faculty? Yes, Dean Kozak. She has a real close bond with my father. My coach. I haven't had everybody in the history department, but I have had a chance to talk to a lot of them, for instance Prof. Delaney, I'm in his class now. So there have been some positive things about student-faculty relations. 21. What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? That's the main thing about being a black student on campus. It is difficult. You don't have fraternity because there aren't enough in number of blacks to establish a black fraternity. A lot of blacks, like myself--my father is a member of a black fraternity and I have always wanted to be a part of that fraternity. So I really don't want to join a fraternity on campus. But being on the basketball team, I have the outlet of knowing people in fraternities and I am always welcome. So from the standpoint of going to the parties and formals, I am able to attend. But from the standpoint of being a black on campus, it is difficult because your black network is not as big and you're not necessarily always able to do the things that others who have a fraternity can do. (How do they differ, black and white fraternities? I think it's just the fact that a fraternity like Pi Phi, for instance, where there are a lot of northerners, New Yorkers, are a soccer-player fraternity, you have a different bond with people that know and relate to better. Especially in this kind of environment, a black fraternity would allow you a big, strong bond and would pull the black community together and make it stronger.) How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? Alcohol is ridiculous on this campus. It is out of control, I believe. I don't partake in alcohol. That's just one thing I have to be strong on myself. This is a free country. I don't abstain entirely. I am 21 years old, so I am allowed to drink. My family doesn't drink and so I never really was strong on drinking. But people here, if they loosen up and as long as they are not out of control with their driving and take care of their responsibilities, it's OK. I do think the school blows it out proportion sometimes, it's accepted. Especially with a lot of freshmen who drink at the tailgate parties, where you know there are people who are not allowed to be drinking and are and almost smile at it. I think that's wrong. How important to you are drugs at a social event? Alcohol is the big thing, I don't much see drugs around campus. That may be because I'm not in a fraternity where there might be... you almost have to keep real quiet around here, I believe. You may have more in fraternities with a close group of friends. So I don't see it that much. 22. What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? I know the Greek fraternities and I go and spend time with the guys. A couple of them have asked me to join, but it just wasn't my thing. They are good guys and good fraternities, but I just wish there were more options. Certain ones, like KAs and SAE are more southern, Old South types. But (I've experienced less receptivity) at some you wouldn't expect that from. You might go to a house where 50% of the brothers are nice to you and 50% don't seem to want you around. But, like I say, we have to go and communicate, and see who's going to be on your side. Everybody is not going to love you and you aren't going to love everybody, so that's one of those things. Sometimes it hurts, especially when it's someone you know and expect different treatment from. (It may take the form) that I might be at someone's fraternity standing there, talking to somebody, and another brother might come up to me and tell me that I have to leave, townies aren't welcome. I've got to tell him that I am not a townie, and he's like, "Well, he's got to go." That's a obvious instance. It happened to me a couple ofweeks ago. I've only been here a year, so I haven't seen it as much as some of the seniors who have seen that. Because I'm on the basketball team, some people might not say as much to me as they would t.o others. But I have experienced it. How would you evaluate or describe any experiences you may have had? When you encounter the bad experiences you have to communicate and talk and see what's going on and evaluate the situation yourself and then you just go on from there. It's not going to break anyone's heart. Some people are always going to be unable to understand you. As long as you don't let it get in your way. 23. Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. I've never taken any phys. ed. classes. But I like the facilities around here. Athletics are not that big a part of this school, so some of the facilities are lacking, some of the things that the sports teams might have the school might not necessarily bring in that would better the teams facility-wise. But I'm on the basketball team. There's a good group of guys on the team. You're a team so you have to be almost like a family, so you have a close-knit group. The coaches, the athletic director, I get along with those guy. We have our bumps and bruises between a coach and a player, but overall, my experience with athletics on campus has been a good one. An improvement I'd like to see: you have a lot of athletes trying to get into the weight room, and I think W&L has enough resources to expand their weight room. The football team complains about the grass being cut to the right length and uniforms. We have 2 different uniforms for the basketball team because they didn't want to buy two uniforms at the same time, which made no sense to me. We have guys who have two pair of shoes and when one goes bad you can order another one, but they decided not to do that because of money. Now when your shoes go bad, you have to order another pair for the same amount of money and it takes a long time to get in, so some guys were playing with shoes with holes in them. Little things that make life a little easier for the athletic program. I think the school could go the extra mile, and I think the teams would be more receptive of that and think the school was on their side a little bit more. 24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? When I first came here, I told my mom, and my dad was like "I'm not going to have a chance to meet any girls here because there are not that many black women on campus." But when I first got here I met a female who's not here anymore, but we've been dating for a year, so we're still close. She's going to Hollins next year. So for dating, I haven't had a complaint. I know that for other people it's kind of hard, because there isn't a big number of blacks on campus. But it did work out for me. 25. Have you ever considered transferring from Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yes, No I have. Sometimes the small size of the school gets to me. I wanted the challenge of coming to a small town and small school. Sometimes, when I watch a basketball game on TV, even tho I know I might not play at a bigger school, just to be in the atmosphere where sports are bigger, there are more people, more community, closer to my family--1 want to get back close to my family in Ohio--that's been a big issue for me. My sister goes to school in Ohio. Those are issues that have made me think about transferring and I still today do. I know it's getting close to the time where I have to decide. But right now, I am happy here. I was talking to my dad just two weeks ago about still thinking about it. I wasn't in bad with the school, it was just the fact that I wanted to be closer to my family. My grandfather had a heart attack last week. That's what makes me homesick every once in a while. Why/why not? Ifyes, whatfactor(s) influenced you to stay? I have had a good experience on campus. I have met some good friends. I get along well with my roommates. I'm losing one, Bryan Austin, this year. Basketball is going well for me. I like the decision I made. Academics are starting to improve for me, and I think this is a good situation for me to stay here. 26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? I work for the Dining Hall. It's an independent job. I do that to help my dad. He's paying for the tuition, so I help him out that way. Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? It has. Last year, I came into basketball half-way through the season, so I got to meet my teammates at some of the parties I'd go to. This year, I'm a checker, so I get to meet everybody who comes through the line. I've made a lot of friends, like people I might have in a class now, when they come through the line, they say "How're you doing, Kevin," and I can say "How're you doing" to them. It's more on a name basis now and has opened me up to more people on campus and more people have opened up to me. I enjoy that. 27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. I definitely would. Especially a black student. I would never tell a student, white or black, not to come to this school because it offers too many good things. But from a black standpoint, I would definitely encourage more black students to come here because of the fact that, even though there might not be that many here now and the blacks here might not be satisfied with the situation, if you encourage more to come the situation will only get better. The more blacks that are on campus, the more the community will pull together, both the white and black communities. There are some white kids on campus who don't interact with blacks, and the more you have on campus, there will be more opportunities for people to bump into each other by chance and get to understand each other better. Now we ask some background information: 28. In what geographical location did you grow up: Country: State: I was born in Ohio but we moved to Florida. A lot of my family is still in Ohio. In what type ofarea or community did you spend most ofyour growing up years? Urban X Never lived downtown, but near downtown. So I was always able to interact with all kinds of people. Suburban Rural 29. Describe the type ofhigh school you attended. Urban: Private city school that attracted people from all over the world. Like Georgetown Prep in DC or some of the better prep schools in the country: a Bolles School. Suburban Rural Predominantly Black White X (about 1-2% black but with a good intercultural community) Mixed 30. Please give the kin relationship(s) between you and family members in your home when you were growing up. Mother, Father, Sister, tight family, aunts, uncles, grandparents played a big role in the family and lived nearby. 31. What was the highest level ofeducation achieved by your parents, guardians, or others with whom you lived when you were growing up? Father: MS in Psychology; Mother: MS in Education. What are the occupations or professions ofyour parents or guardians? Mother is the principal of an elementary school, and my father is the chief financial officer of a branch of ATT (??). 32. As compared to other W &L students, how would you characterize your overall social class position (based on parents' education and family income)? I don't think I'm doing bad compared to others. I know there are a lot here with a lot of money, and there are a lot here who are on scholarship. I think I'm in the middle somewhere. My father does pretty well and my mom holds her own, too. My family has a pretty stable background. How do you think this has affected your experience? That's been one of the major factors. I'm one of the only black students on campus who pays to go to school here. That's worked as a negative and a positive with blacks, also, because some look at me like I'm crazy. They wonder why I would come to a school like this, while others look at me like I'm not down, not cool, whereas when they get to know me, I am probably one of the more militant ones. Well, not militant but one of the more outspoken blacks on campus. So that's been a factor with them, having a little more money than the majority of the blacks on campus. But that has worked as a positive. They see that there are blacks out there who are making money and that's why they're in school, so they can have a strong career and have a strong family and so that their kids can go to a good school. That's what I want to do, that's why I'm here. As far as some of the faculty members, the coaches, we always get in little fights over this, they always bring up my father. My father might come to a game where they might say that he must have a nice job to come way up here to a game, where if somebody else's father comes to a game, there wouldn't be a comment made. That kind of thing makes me mad, that people can't just see the support that you are getting from your family and acknowledge that instead of making a big deal about what your father does, how can you, being black, afford to be going here. That's not the issue. It's irritating, but it's also a chance for people to see that no matter what situation I come from, I am the person I am, no matter what my background is. 33. In general how do you think about yourselffirst at Washington and Lee -­as a member ofa particular racial/ethnic/national/gender group, or as a student? Because the black community is so small on campus, I almost make myself first as a member of a racial or ethnic group, just because I want people to know that I am black student at Washington and Lee, just to recognize that we are out there and we want to be part of the community. And second, as a student, just because the main reason you go to college is to be a student, and I want to be like everybody else, a student, and I want to attain my degree and achieve like everybody else. Please explain. 34. How homogeneous do you believe black students are on this campus? In answering please consider racial identification, political perspective, and/or social class position. I have been a little displeased that we are not as tight knit as a community. There are only 30 something or maybe 42 of us here at the most, and we are not as tight as we should be. Blacks here should be closer. We don't all have to be best friends or hang tight together, but I think we do all need to recognize each other and appreciate each other being here and kind of help each other out. But it doesn't work that way here. Sometimes people kind of set themselves off into different little sections and I think that kind of takes away from the strength of the black community. From a political perspective, I think there are different agendas out there, and that's the main reason we have the kind of a breakup. I think everybody says they are going for the same goal, but I think their way of getting there is sometimes a different approach, that kind of takes away. Social class: we have a lot of different social class of blacks out there, and I don't think that plays much of a role. Like, for instance, my roommates come from a totally different social class than I do, and we are a real close knit group. I think it's more how people want to take their college experience at Washington and Lee as being a black student. I think that's where you have the breakdown. We haven't been able to mold together, we have different goals and haven't been able to bring it all together yet. There are differences in ideals and how things should work, and I think even in our association, the MSA, there's a lot of different sects and different groups and it takes away from the effectiveness of the community. I think that is one of the things that we, as a black community, have to address. 35. How similar or different do you believe blacks and whites are on this campus? Consider the same categories that are mentioned in number 34 above and add any other factors that you deem important. I think there are a lot of similarities between blacks and whites on this campus. Everybody here is here because they are intelligent, most people are here because they are able to afford the campus and come from a strong family background, and I think the barrier is the color line, when people don't understand it. If I knock on your door and we talk for a minute, we'll see that we are really one and the same. That's a problem, where people have to get over that color. Within your household, whether black or white, you are going to come from a lot of different viewpoints. You can be in the same social class, the same background, and what's said in my house might be totally different than what's said in your house. We watch the same TV shows and you might have a different viewpoint than I do. So there are a lot of differences. But they are small, things you have grown up with, and with communication, I think, the differences will become worked out to where you can almost laugh about how we thought it was such a big thing, when it's really not. I think that among all people there are those differences. The way people justify those differences is to break them up into color lines. They say that even tho we have the same background, we are different because we black or white, where although we have different views, they are probably not that much different. Somebody white might have the same view that I do, but because they are not in this equation right now, it's just me and you, and you don't see that. 36. Do you believe the size ofthe black student enrollment at Washington and Lee is adequate or inadequate? I think it is too small to provide for a comfort area for the black students on campus. Also, for the faculty and students to experience a more equal ratio --not like 50-50, but the more there are on campus the better everybody's understanding of each other will be. It will aid better dialog in class. I think it definitely should be increased. You should see more than one or two black faces on campus when you walk around every day. Do you believe the number ofblack professors is adequate or inadequate? What are there, one or two now, and one is just visiting? I think that's kind of small. I think the number ofwomen faculty members on campus is also. I think that's an area that Washington and Lee should definitely try to improve on. But I think a lot of colleges across the country are having the same problem, finding blacks and women to be faculty members. Do you believe the number ofblack administrators is adequate or inadequate? Explain. There's only one that I know of and I think that's inadequate. We lost our black admissions administrator and that kind of hurt from an admissions standpoint a lot. I think they ought to make up for that loss. For the black administrator we do have now, maybe strengthen her role or give her a support group where she doesn't have to rely on the 30 of us students to be her only support group. She could have a little help from others on campus. Just a small number would definitely improve that. 37. Should the university offer activities designed to bring new black students together? Ifnot, why not? I definitely believe they should. I think that ifyou increase the number so that they can speak for themselves, it will provide a community that will bring us together. I think the school should not leave it in our hands only. I know they have activities around campus to bring certain students together at certain events, and I think they should also have a situation where blacks have that opportunity to come together. Maybe throw a picnic for us. Just to let us know that they care about us, that we are not just here, and that they are looking out for us and making sure we are having a good experience. Ifyes... do you have suggestions? ... Has the Chavis House played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. That's where our meetings are. That's where the black students live in the house. That's a place we always have an opportunity to go. I heard that in the past it was a lot stronger than it is today, but I think that's more on the black community. It is definitely a central ground that we have. I go often, just to relax sometimes, to get away. It is definitely a place we need on campus. Has the Minority Student Association played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. It has too. That is the first place I met all the blacks on campus and had an opportunity to talk to them. Without that organization, there would be no unity among blacks because we wouldn't have a chance to have a small fraternity or organizational group. It is definitely important for black students. I have been a member for two semesters. 38. Do you believe that it is important that courses in the humanities/social sciences include recognition or study ofworks by persons ofcolor? I definitely think that's important because it wouldn't be an accurate study ifyou are talking about, maybe, a literature class in American contemporary literature and you don't mention some of the black who have played a role. The same with history. I don't think you could the history of America without learning the history of blacks in America and other ethnic groups and races, too. And I do think this school has done a good job. I have been in classes where the name is not necessarily African-American History or such, but a women's studies class where African­American women are brought up. I thought that was something that you might not expect coming from this school or from a faculty member who doesn't have to mention it, and they do. Ifyou think works by persons ofcolor should be included do you think the recognition was adequate, inadequate, or excessive? Please explain. I think that it was adequate. You don't have to overblow it to prove a point. But you definitely shouldn't leave it out. As long as you are mentioning it in its importance: if it very important, you stress it a lot, if it important to a small influence, you just let that be known. Just as long as you don't leave it out or overblow it to make a point, I think it's perfect. 39. How would you characterize the climate in the classroom for you [as a black student}? I'd say it varies. In some of my small discussion classes that I've had, the discussion could go on fine then a certain topic will pop up and it might cross some of those lines that people, black and white, tend to differ on and the discussion might get quiet for a little while, or somebody might raise a question and they might look to you like, "Oh, man, maybe I shouldn't have said that." Even, I think, that teachers once in a while might be scared to mention something that they might say ifI wasn't in the classroom, even if it is not a negative comment, but thinking that I might have a negative approach to it. But that works the same with me. I might want to say something in class, but I wonder if I say this, is it going to be taken in the wrong way. People in the classroom might have different viewpoints than me. When you have a small class where people are talking, that's where you have start see it. That's good. I think people should be open and say what they want to say, and that's where you get understanding and communication. That's what the class is for, to get different viewpoints. In some of the bigger classes, where you might be the only one in class, I think it's interesting how the teacher knows your name the first day or second day in class. It's for obvious reasons. You see it on both fronts, but I think it's not a problem if you're not scared to say what you want to say, and others aren't scared to say what they want to say. The topics that raise that funny feeling are affirmative action, that comes up a lot, different topics during the election, talking about an African-American person like Malcolm X, where there are totally different viewpoints ofwhat he stood for among black and white students, where neither one of them is necessarily wrong. Blacks might see him as a great man who came to understanding that all people should be equal and are one and the same. Whites may see him as the guy that by any means necessary and is more militant. That's where the teacher is definitely the mediator, he provides the facts, that yes, he was both of those. That's what the whole class comes to understand. Some of those topics that for me, I've seen, in history class especially, more about African­Americans or certain social issues that popped up. There are some classes people have said something and I have said something back and it's worked into a discussion where by the end of the class we haven't resolved our differences, but there is a better understanding, and you feel almost happy coming out class. And there are some classes where the topic is raised and then it's almost like nothing comes out of it, and. you walk away and you're thinking that didn't work as well as it should have. And other people may be thinking the same thing. So it works and doesn't work, but you got to keep trying. Ifyou have encountered 'problems in the classroom, how have you dealt with those difficulties? When it has worked out, you smile and you pat a person's back and say thank you for being able to talk about this and not backing into a corner. You pride yourself for not backing into a corner, being in the small numbers I would be in in that type of class. And when it doesn't work out, you walk back to your room with your head down, like today we didn't work out what we said, or I feel that I didn't help society move in the right direction. I didn't make a change where I could have stepped in and even learned something myself if I had spoken up and found out that I was wrong about something. It's sometimes good and you want to pat someone on the back and other times it's like, well today was a stalemate, we'll work it out tomorrow. 40. What is the role ofthe Office ofMinority Student Affairs? I don't really know what the role of that office is. I think the role should be to make sure that the school is doing its role in making sure that blacks on campus, minorities on campus are happy, taken care of, not from an extra standpoint, but just to be sure there are not things going on their lives that are unfair or to their disadvantage. I think that office should focus on making sure that the students they are supposed to look out for aren't just crawling into their own corner, that they are happy from the standpoint that they are able to go out and... I think Dean McCloud has encouraged us to interact with others, other blacks, other whites. I have talked to Dean McCloud a couple of times, and I don't see her that much. As a person in her position, where there are not that many blacks in the administration, she should be a role model to us. Ifwe do see her, we don't necessarily see her out mingling with other administrators, and other administrators don't necessarily mingle with her. We don't see her at sports activities, and I think that kind of separates her to the point where ifwe see her talking to others or at events, then you have more blacks at events. This provides leadership for us, not necessarily tell us what to do but to show us, to be guidance for us. Like I say, I don't know what her situation is and what her bounds are in her office. But I think the school should also allow the office to be open and interactive, they should want her to be a very vocal administrator. I don't know if they do or if they want her just to be in her room and associate with just certain people and not be seen that much. But I definitely think that spot should be vocal and be seen all the time. She's almost like our voice. We have a voice, but if it goes through the administration, she is our voice. I think she could tell them that we think there should be more blacks on campus, some of the issues that we are raising now about some of the housing issues that are coming up where the males are able to go sophomore year to fraternity houses but the females go to Chavis, then you have the black males on campus who don't join fraternities and don't know where to live. The new issue that has popped up is that only sophomores will be able to live in Gaines, and there will be limited houses in Woods Creek. Ifyou are a black male and you are stuck out where you don't get a house in Woods Creek, how are you going to deal with that issue. My roommates have to live on campus. They are on financial aid, they are not able to go out into town and get an apartment. Those are the issues that she needs to raise. The black community is not necessarily going to flow the same way as the rest of the community, just because of the fact that it is not as interactive in certain areas. We need to know that someone is looking out for us when they do make decisions, that they are not making them blind to black students. I don't if other black students are communicating enough with her. If they are not, then that's on them if something goes wrong and they don't think something worked out to their advantage. How can the role ofthis Office be improved? 41. From whom do you receive the greatest emotional support on campus? Do not use name(s), but please describe the person(s) in terms ofrace, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and position (i.e. fellow student, faculty member, administrator, staffmember). Ifappropriate, include more than one individual and describe the type ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support (i.e. personal, family, religious, etc.) I believe that most of my emotional support comes from my roommates. They are black. We feel we are in the same kind of boat. I have two roommates and live in Gaines. We are together all the time, so that when one has a problem, it's like everybody's problem. We deal with. My closest roommate is also an athlete. We deal with the problems of being sometimes the only black on the team, and with other athletic related issues. We lean on each other for support, try to make the other one feel better. My roommates are my friends and my closest emotional support, and without them I would have a tough time making it on campus. You can't always rely on your teammates, you can't always rely on your coaches, sometimes your advisor is kind of a tough person to talk to about certain issues. Being able to have two black roommates is a strong thing for me. Last year, I had some good roommates. I could talk, they were real open, so I think the roommates have been my strongest support, especially with the black ones this year, definitely has allowed me to express my feelings a little bit better, and come away from our discussion feeling that hey! it isn't as bad as I was making it seem. What percentage ofyour friends are black, what white, and what international? International, not that great a percent. I do know a lot through working in the dining hall and through some of the students who came from Jamaica and Trinidad. This year we had a lot of minority students come from that direction, so I am getting better at that area. My closest friends on campus are black, males and females. Whites, my teammates, are real close friends with me. Other people I've met: my roommates last year, people I've met by going out to events. So I'd say that black are the majority of my close friends, and then probably my teammates would be next in line as the closest, and then after that I branch out to meet others and have other relationships. I might have more whites, but the blacks are the closest. 42. Have you experienced any discriminatory behavior on campus directed against yourself? What form did that behavior take (written remarks including graffiti, spoken remarks, physical assault, discriminatory treatment). Who was responsible for that behavior? Individual students X Team members Student groups Greek X, Like I said, at the fraternities sometimes there are some who think you're a townie and don't belong on campus. Non Greek Faculty X Administrator Staff X Coach Security X You might be walking down the street late at night and a security guard might drive past and slow down. Or a police officer, just when you're walking around campus, where they look at you suspiciously, assuming that you look suspicious. That's something that we have to get over those kinds of things. One day I was walking to class, in a rush because I was a little late, the security guard, Mr. Young, stopped me and asked me if I was getting all A's this semester. I said, I'm trying to. He was talking to Dean Howison, who said, "All he has to do is play well on the basketball court." And that's a comment that kind of-I was upset with myself for not stopping and saying that that's not a comment that should come out of his mouth, especially being an administrator on campus. But I just went into class, and for the whole fifty minutes I was in class I was thinking how I let this opportunity slip away. That was something that really got under my skin. As soon as I got out of class I went and called my father and told him what happened. I never did get back to Dean Howison. I thought about it, and I decided to let it go and see what happens down the line. I've told a lot of people. It's something I want people to know about. Maybe one day. It's probably a small thing in his mind, but it is one of those things that has stuck in my mind for a long time. Another thing. You might see that being the only black on a sports team where certain things might be said that are almost to the point that if I wasn't in the locker room I wouldn't want to know what was said. They might make comments that are racial insults or might be racial comments they let slip and they look at me real quick to make sure I didn't hear, or see ifl did. We were at Elmira one time, when a teammate made a comment about how there was no crime in his community of Boca Raton because there were no minorities there. I was sitting right next to him when he said this, and I jumped down his throat, and everybody was choking on their food because they can't believe he said that, and I'm reacting. And that's one of my better friends on the team. It happens. There's a lot of racial things. Like you might have a time where your father might come to a game, and your mother comes us and the coach might not come up and talk to your family, but might come up and talk to other people's families at the game. Why is that? The reason I came here is that my father talked to my coach more than I talked to my coach when I first came here. And before I was coming here they had a good relationship. Coach Moore is one of the people I thought and I still do think is one of the better people on this campus. Sometimes things pop up like that. Why is that taking place? That is something we definitely have to talk about and work out. We, meaning my coach and Dean Howison, have to understand why is there mis-communication here, why are they not working the way that they might with a white student, why are things said that might not be said if I wasn't a black person on campus. Why can't I just be a student on campus? I let people know that I am a black student, it's not hard to see that! When you are in a close group, like a team, that's obvious and you've worked past that over the whole year that you're working together, those kinds of comments come up and make you wonder what's going on, something's wrong here, this is something we have to work out. Most of the racial things I've bumped into have been team related. Like a fellow player might make a comment, or a coach might make a comment. We work those out different ways. Sometimes they still need to be worked out. That's one of the roughest things I have. Most teams here only have one black athlete. The soccer team has two, I think. The football team had two for a while, and one quit. The basketball team has one. It is like that one black is always going to be in a position where it's him against the rest of the team, and that's a tough situation that a lot of blacks -that's one of the main things me and my roommates talk about: this is what happened to me today at practice. Sometimes they are comments that are directed at me. I understand that my teammates are not trying to hurt me, sometimes they just don't know. They say it shouldn't be taken the wrong way. I know that if I say things that might not be taken the right way, I understand, because I wouldn:t want that said around me, so I wouldn't say it around them. And I think that they, at 12 to 1, are in a freer environment. They can safely slip up here and there. When we went to L.A. and we were looking for a gym, and there were some Asian students that were coming from playing tennis. We asked them where the gym was, and they didn't know, and my coach made the comment, an Asian joke. There was another player on my team who took offense to it, too. It's like, that's a person, you know. You wouldn't like it if someone said that about you, even if you didn't know you were saying it. That's wrong, you shouldn't do that. We were out in L.A. and there are a lot of Hispanic people in L.A. and once in a while a comment would pop up. I'm like, ifyou're saying that about other people, you obviously have a kind of misunderstanding and you are being racist. If I'm not on this bus, what happens when you stop a black guy on the street and ask him a question. Then what do you say about him after he leaves? That's what I see in the discrimination part. Sometimes people will say things, or will act certain ways, like the townie comment, where they don't necessarily think or try to understand. They will say things before they think about what they are saying. That's when you see people true sides sometimes. Sometimes they really don't care. That kind of hurts. Now we're real tight with Security so it doesn't happen as much now. When I first got here, nobody knew me. I'm walking around campus and sometime earlier this year, when I was walking around campus, down an alley from the dorm, he slows down to see who it is. It's the kind of stuff that gets under your skin a little bit. It's funny on TV, but in person it's not funny anymore. Same with the police who might stop you and talk to you, just different type things where those things pop up maybe twice a year, where they just shouldn't happen at all. Probably the most where you get organizations saying something or having something happening is a Greek organization. A fraternity house having an Old South theme, having people out front picking cotton, that's a definite race thing. Then you have houses where they talk about having a Sherman's March to the Sea, just to get under people's skin and say that's not right. We are going to take a stand. We are going to stand up against what you're trying to glorify, which is a part of history, but it's something that we've moved on past. We grew out of that and are trying to move on. The more people try to hold on to things and don't think about what they are saying and don't understand that what they're saying is wrong, that's why you can't have a .... society today. Leaving aside behavior, do you sense racial tensions on campus beyond what exists in the larger society? Ifso, how do you think such tensions could be eased within W &L? I think that because it's a small group of blacks that in our relationship with some white we do definitely see the tension. Sometimes you're face to face and they put their heads down or look the other way. It's definitely tension. There's one kid, we went to kindergarten together and we were like this, he'd be over at my house one weekend, he was over at my house the next weekend and we grew up really tight. When I was going to come here, I talked to him at the airport, we hadn't talked in a while 'cause he went to a different high school than me, and you kind of see a little bit of tension. His parents were still friendly. I get here, we talked one time. He's a white student here. I have heard from other people that he has made a couple of racial comments around other whites. People in his fraternity say he a little on the racist side. That kind of thing is where you see the tension. I knew you at home, you were a different person. Now you come here, where there are not that many blacks and where back in elementary school we were face to face all the time, where here you don't see blacks every day. I think there is room for that to happen. That's why I say that more blacks on campus and more interaction between blacks and whites would take away some of that and make this a ......... society. Because right now it has a reputation of being a racial tension campus among people on campus and among others. When I talk to people at home or elsewhere about Washington and Lee and black students, they ask why I go here, to a school that has Robert E. Lee and glorifies this and that. Other people can see something is not right here. I think this is a good step for this school to take action like this. It helps to take actions where, like the incident at VMI about the football coach being fired because ofwhat he was saying, and you had an article in one of those newspapers in the city where you had black people talking and white people saying stuff and some of the comments on both sides were very racist comments, that's definitely not getting close to the answer to the issue. I think the same thing here. Ifyou ask certain people here about how do you feel about society from a black/white issue, some people say the right things, some people say we need to work to this, but then there'll be a lot of people that will still say things that are racist. These are the things that we have to work at from a community standpoint. Right now I don't believe that the campus or individuals on campus are doing that. So it does provide a lot of racial tension. To reduce these tensions, we need more blacks on campus, more administrators, making people communicate. Ifyou want to take a class as a requirement and you have to have a black teacher, you're going to have to come in contact with a black person. Ifthere are more blacks in class that means that in one out of four classes you're going to have a black student in your class and you're going to have to deal with black students. There are some blacks in fraternities, that's a positive. Having Alana King[?] in here the other day, that's a positive. More things like that, that don't just come from the MSA. Last year Cornell West was brought in by the MSA. Why can't the religion department bring in a black religion speaker, for instance. It's a positive step when not just a black organization is bringing in blacks and whites together and seeing that the minority viewpoint is heard. If the school would show more incentive, the numbers would increase and that would be a positive step. Then you have a speaker come in and the audience gets bigger. Every time you bring in a black speaker and the audience gets bigger, that's a positive. You don't just have your black students there, you have more white students there. People want to hear different things. That shows the campus is coming to a better understanding and is willing to listen to the other side and work together. 43. Aside from the Honor System do you believe that the student Executive Committee, the Student Conduct Committee or other University judicial committees treat black and white students equally fairly? Being a new student here, I don't know much about these organizations. I haven't heard of anybody going through the Student Conduct Committee. I have heard of black students going through the Honor System. Things worked out for them. These committees need to have black students on the board. Ifblack students go up before their peers that are white and are given a fair hearing, I think that's a positive step. The people I know that have gone up there have come away with a fair trial, and whether right or wrong, they were dealt with appropriately. 44. Do you believe that the honor system is applied in an even-handed way to black and white students? I do believe so. Ifyou have a black student brought up on charges, because we are small in numbers, it's not like there's a huge number of blacks that are brought up on charges. It's not like people out there are abusing the right to question or accuse somebody because they're black or white. There have been a IQt ofwhites that have gone up and been found guilty and some blacks that have been found not guilty. It's on merit and what you've done. 45. How would you evaluate student publications (i.e. the Ring-tum Phi, the Trident, etc.), the student radio and television stations with regards to opportunities for black students to participate. I know that the radio and the television station .......... was done by Omar, and BJ and a couple of other people have radio programs, so there is definitely opportunity for them to get involved. Jack does the radio. I don't know about the Trident and the Ring Tum Phi. But I do know that ifyou want to do it, you can. They aren't holding you back. How would you evaluate them with regard to their treatment ofnews about black students? I hardly ever see the Trident say anything about the situation. They talk a lot about the gay and lesbian situation on campus, and that's a big issue right now. Where hardly anybody says anything about the black students. I heard Bryan just got interviewed for an article coming out in the Trident. I think that's important because that's something everybody reads every Wednesday or Thursday, whenever it comes out, during dinner or lunch. That's when their minds are free and it doesn't hurt them to see it. Once in a while I see something about black and white relations and see how black students on campus are feeling and how certain whites feel about blacks. It's definitely a time when people are open-minded. When they read the newspaper, they are kind of relaxed. So it's a good time to see things like that. 46. Do you feel that black students at Washington and Lee today have problems that are basically different from, or basically similar to those ofwhites? Please describe in what way you feel they are different or similar. We have different problems. From the student standpoint, they are similar. We go to class, have to pass tests, and that's similar. From the fact of the number of us, we are always in the minority around here, so we have to deal with that issue. Sometimes, when you walk into a class you wonder if this teacher is going to be fair to me as a black student. Am I going to be singled out sometimes? Ifa discussion comes up in a sticky situation, ifI say something, is that going to affect how he feels about me or how the rest ofthe class looks at me? Or in athletics, how is my coach and other people see me when I am the only black on the team? Are they going to see that as a positive, are they trying to recruit more blacks to be on the team? The coach told me he has, we talked about that. The issue is being a smaller number that we have to deal with and not being part of the Greek life. We deal with this as a social matter. IfI am walking on campus and I walk past 10 people, how do those 10 people feel about me? IfI say Hi to them and they say Hi to me, or if they put their heads down, why is that? How many people rather than make eye contact would put their heads down and walk by me and wouldn't want to say Hi to me. Those are the things that we deal with every day. Does the community as a whole rather we not be here. Is the number small because they don't want more? We lost a lot last year, some failed out, some transferred out. Could the community have done something to help out more? Are we working together well enough? Out of my four years am I going to come away having good friends for the rest of my life, because my options are limited? From the dating standpoint, have I met black females on campus that see me as a positive black student on campus or do they see me as having taken a negative approach to my four years and left a bad taste in people's mouths. We deal with a lot of issues that others might not have to deal with because the campus is more like them. They are not trying to stand up to certain things. Everything I do is under a microscope. I want to make sure that everything I leave is perfect. I think the black community as a whole feels that way. *47. Sex Male *48. Age? 21 *49. Year in college? sophomore *50. Cumulative grade point average [as ofFall 1996]? 2.188 *51. How do you identify yourself in terms of nationality? American 52. How do you identify yourself in terms of race? African-American (or Black). 53. Are there additional comments you wish to make about any aspects of Washington and Lee? I think the numbers should be increased of both students, and administrators and faculty. The last is probably the harder to do, but definitely we need to have a black admissions administrator. When I first came here this year I asked how many new black students were brought in, and they told me ten. They brought in 11 last year. If you bring 10 in every year, you're around 40, and I think the numbers should be higher, but at least you're around the average number. I think only 5 of them were from the U.S. The others were from Trinidad, and so on. I don't think that's making it. You're bring in other cultures, which is a positive, but you definitely need to bring in more than 5 from the U.S. ifyou want to represent society, we should do better than that. The students themselves ought to take more initiative in working their problems out. They need to work harder to talk to other people when conflicts come up. And when conflicts don't arise, just make sure you get to know people. It's important to be interactive in the community. See little groups around campus talking and you don't see many integrated groups. When you see a group with a black male or black female in the group, that's a positive. Just talking about the day, not necessarily major issues. That's the community working together and being a real community.