#13 INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE 1. Have you decided upon a college major? Ifyes, what? Yeah. Computer science. 2. (Ifthe answer to question 1 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GPA) in your major field? No, I really don't 3. What type ofdegree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? BA 4. What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? Software engineer. 5. Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your undergraduate program? yes, immediately. Definitely 6. While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? Yes I No Ifyes, please give the denomination, and the type ofchurch activities in which you participated. Well, OK. I'm Catholic, I went to Catholic school, but I really didn't go to church on a regular basis. So, personally active -probably say no. How would you characterize your church involvement in Lexington? There is none. 7. How would you compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? Oh, a lot more active in high school. I don't do anything here, but in high school I was very active. What kinds ofthings did you do in high school? I was in like Students Against Drunk Driving, National Honors Society, I did community service, I did choirs, a lot of different things. Andyou 're doing nothing at all here? Nothing. With the exception of Minority Students Association. I do do Big Brothers and Big Sisters. 8. How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? At a college fair. Did a representative from W &L come to the fair .. Yes, it was a college fair in DC, well it's outside of Washington. It was at Project Excellence Scholarship thing. See, I was one of the winners, so that's why I'm here. 9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? 10. Didyou visit the campus before you matriculated as a student? Yes. Ifyes, under what circumstances? I think I visited during an accepted students weekend. What was the weekend like? Describe your visit. I think they had a lunch for us, and I was with my parents. WE walked around on campus, got to see the dorms, that kind of thing. Didyou get to stay on campus when you came? I think .. we didn't spend the night on campus. Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. I though that I would probably get a good education here, but I knew socially I'd be unhappy probably. You could tell that right away. Um hum. How was that? Well, I didn't see any. It didn't seem to me that there were any activities that I would want to participate in. And people were kind of cold to me, so. 1Oa. Was W &L your... Less than third. 1Ob. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... It'd be six or more, cause it was probably eleven or twelve. 1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? Probably about eleven. I got accepted by everybody. 11. What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? Well, I guess it would be the offer of financial assistance and the good academics, because my parents, they're close to retirement age, and they could pay for me to go anywhere I wanted to, but I decided to be nice and go to school for free and help them out. Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? Well, it wasn't too far from home. 12. Once you decided to enroll at W &L, what was the reaction offriends and relatives? [Pause] Well, everybody asked me was I really sure that I wanted to attend Washington and Lee. and, You know all the history about it, you know, Robert E. Lee and all that. [ starting to try not to cry] So they were concerned for you .. Yeah. Is that specifically what they meant when they said ''Are you really sure?" Um hum. Were there negative images about W&L that made you think seriously about not coming? No. I don't think there were negative images, I didn't think so, that made me think seriously .. I just thought, I mean I saw that there was a very small number of minority students, but I don't think I really thought negative about the school for that. But, apparently there was some sense that you might not be happy because ofthe tradition, the Robert E. Lee tradition, etc? Yeah, people were like .. to pick a predominately white school, they had no problem with that, but they were like "Why did you pick Washington and Lee, .. the school of Robert E. Lee." Because a lot ofthe school I picked, for some reason predominately white ones that I applied to, a lot of them were in the south. People were like "Why are you doing that?" They could see applying to like Boston University or something. But I had picked like Rice, and something in the South. So they thought you might be getting yourself into a pickle ofsome sort. Yeah. So why did you choose predominately white schools in the South, do you remember? It wasn't anything. It wasn't -I hadn't even really thought about it in that terms. I guess I never, cause I never thought ofrace that much, so .. 13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? Academically, yes. And, socially? I'd say, I don't know, socially it's gotten worse every year I've been here, so .. Worse for you or the social situation has gotten worse? well, worse for minority students in general. Really, the social situation at the university has gotten worse for minority students .. Tell me more about that. OK, when I was a freshman, OK, the minority students, I guess we had more social functions with each other, that were geared for us -I guess we planned them ourselves, though. Cause we had more parties, and just more social activities, and then last year, and I think we might have had one or two parties, and we're just having our first one this year tonight. Why is that, do you think? Part of it has to do with the type of, it's the type of leadership we have in MSA, and then with their views for the organization, what they think the organization should be. Cause, like last year, we had this leader, and I think personally, he didn't want Minority Student Association to be viewed as a black organization. It should have just been another organization. To him. So, I think he tried to downplay the fact that we were minority students, and he wanted our parties to be like fraternity parties, and that's not what we like, so it was just... What do you like? Like, let's say with the party scene .. The fraternity parties, it's nothing but liquor. and music is extra, but liquor is primary. And we can have a party without liquor. When I was a freshman, we didn't have drinks at our parties, we just had music, and you know, it was nice and we enjoyed it, and we had a lot of people. Did you do a lot ofdancing? Um hum, so .. Did you have a lot ofattendance at your parties? Yes. Mixed.. black students and white students? No, not really. Did you have then at the Chavis House mostly. Yeah, Chavis House. Well, it's true that the complection ofeach organization on campus changes as the student body that happens to be here changes. It might change back. Do you feel that you have much input in what happens? [pause] [ crying] You obviously wish it were different. I know I could do more than what I do .. I guess I'm sort ofasking, do you feel like anyone's keeping you from making a difference. Oh, no, no one's keeping me from making a difference. Ifthe school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the campus, please describe how it differed. You've described that some, is there more you want to say? Socially it's quite different than you expected. Yes, that's probably about it. *You said that when you were in high school you hadn't really thought about race all that much, so that's one ofthe reasons why you didn't think too much about why the school was in the south or not. Yeah, and I guess, see I'd lived in a predominately black neighborhood and had gone to a predominately black school, then had I had gone to a mixed school. So I didn't naturally assume .. I guess I never had really experienced though that being only 2% [factor?], so .. that was an awakening experience. You said you .. what did you naturally assume? I guess I naturally assumed I thought I could handle it more. So when you got here it turned out to be different than that. So what's it like, being only 2%, that's different. [pause J We can turn this offany time you want to. [ crying] Yeah, let's turn it off. Which question are we on? Well, I kind ofthought it would be a good idea to go back to 13 because clearly you hadn't expected things to be so hard, being only 2% ofthe population as a minority student. And so I wondered how it was different than what you expected it to be. Well, I guess I thought it would just be more comfortable, like freshman year, I can remember that when we went to the dorms, and people just weren't friendly. [still some struggle to not cry] And, in your life before people had always been friendly, and suddenly people weren't friendly.. [nods] Yeah. Anything else? anything specific about what the dorms were like, or .. Not really, cause I think in some ways I think the dorm experience was good, because I met some nice people, and then, you know, I met some not so nice people, .. So you got a chance to meet some people that you might not have met otherwise? Yeah, because, I don't think that otherwise I would have .. I think if it wasn't for that initial freshman dorm experience, I think, I couldn't see myself as having -I wouldn't view myself as being close with some white students as I am, unless I've lived with them. 14. Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. How have you dealt with it? [pause] Could we come back to that question, cause I can't think of anything? Sure, absolutely. Let's go back to 13 for a minute [*} .. Do you want to come back to this greatest challenge question later? ... Academically I don't think it's been like a really big challenge. I mean, my grades aren't that good, but I don't think it's because it's been so over my head, it's just -I'm a procrastinator, so .. you know .. [ chuckling] So, it's not academics. What is it? I guess, ... I guess I'm angry. And I guess I'm angry about it all the time. Wow, that's a challenge. That's probably what it is. What are you angry about? I mean, like I don't know, I guess, you know, I guess it's like the race factor is there, like 24 hours a day, seven days a week [ struggling with emotions again] it doesn't matter where you go, like on the weekends in the fraternity parties, they ask the black people to leave. Really, every fraternity? No, last weekend it was Chi Psi, and they asked us to leave. How many ofyou? There was probably about four of us. What excuse did they make? Oh, they said, we didn't know you were Washington and Lee students. [Bob, keep in mind that white students from other schools are welcome] And then when they found out you were W &L students they still asked you to leave? No, when they found out we were students, they were, OK we had one friend from VMI, and he had to leave because he wasn't from Washington and Lee, but I knew there were white people there who were not Washington and Lee students. Like a hour ago I'd just seen this group of white girls from [U Ma?] get in a fight and they weren't asked to leave, so .. So, and we were just standing there, so .. Is it certain fraternities that ask you to leave, or is it across the board? It's not across the board, it's only certain ones, but it's not like, I don't really like pick out which one's have the problem. Like there's some we know you just don't go to. And then it's like, I don't know, because that time it was the house president that asked us to leave, at Chi Psi, and then in the past, I don't know, cause it's not like, like one night I can go to a fraternity party, and then if I come back in a couple of weeks somebody might ask me to leave. Same place, huh? Yeah, so it's not like an across the board thing, it's just people with personal problems, maybe. Yeah, but it's a crap shoot for you. Unhun. So those kinds ofthings happen enough that you feel angry all the time. Yeah, and in the classroom environment, like I used to really like politics, and one time I thought I could major in it, but Nope. Because that's one of those majors that have way too much discussion. And when people start discussing things you hear people say things that really, that just really anger me. But I still like politics. I take politics classes quite often., I just end up angry a lot. Is it students that say things that. .. Yeah, students, and sometimes teachers. So how do you deal with that? The fact that you have to carry around this anger all the time? [pause] I don't know, I mean, I've been here three years, you'd think I'd get used to it. It's just part of life here. So you just keep going.. Yeah. There's really nothing I can do, so .. So you haven't found any way to deal with it that really helps. No. 15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? You already answered this a little bit. This is going to happen actually, throughout this, that you mention something that comes later and then when we get to that question you can see ifthere's anything more you want to say about it. Not well, it's a lot worse here than what it was in high school. In terms ofgrades? Yes. Academically it's just suffering right now. Why do you think that is? you said it's not so much that it's harder .. No , I don't think so much .. I don't know .. I think a lot of it's just me, I mean it's like I worked so hard from kindergarten through twelfth, and then I guess I feel that this is the time for me to relax, but .. I don't know. I think -and I wonder -Some of my roommates and I had a talk about this last night. I don't know if it's -like we said we wonder if the happiness issue is actually related to how we do in school, because my best grades were freshman year. And I was happiest then. Since then it's gone downhill, grades have gone right along with it, so I don't know. 16. What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? x Undergraduate library So, basically most of them. Science library Computer facilities. Writing Center. x Tutors in the disciplines. x I've done a study group or two Public lectures on academic subjects. x Language lab. x Yeah, I've visited some professors How do you find your tutors? I would go through Dean McCould. Cause I only actually had one tutor, for calculus, and so .. Do you have suggestions for the development ofthese or other facilities? Like, I've noticed how fraternities and sororities, well, mostly fraternities, they seem to keep like cold tests a lot, and really I think there's no way minority students can actually get these. We don't have -I think that's one way we're at a disadvantage, cause most of these people have cold test rooms where there's nothing but cold tests. We don't have nothing like that. How do they get them? I think they just like -people just save their old tests and they keep them in a room. You could start that in MSA. Yeah, I think they have started it. So, that's something you wish were available to you.. anything else? No, I've taken advantage of all of them. I'd say they do a pretty good job. 17. What factors contribute or contributed to your selection ofa major course ofstudy? It's probably interest in the particular academic discipline .. [chuckling] I've always liked computers. And previous to here I was always good at it, so.. 18. Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? Ifyes, please describe that change. No 19. Ifyou saw a person or group ofpersons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as an honor violation? Please elaborate. [pause] Probably not. Well, I'd say probably not. Tell me more about that. Well, I guess that maybe I just have a problem with the honor code all together. Because, number one, some things need to be covered over there. Like, you can rape a person, and you can no longer go in the freshman dorms. And it's just like, that's so ridiculous to me. You mean that's the punishment? Yeah. Like you can't go in the freshman dorm and you can't go to parties, and it's just like, that makes no sense. So this lying cheating stealing thing. Its just so -I don't mean petty -but there are like worse things that could be done and there's like no penalty for that, just lie cheat or steal and get then kicked out. Like possession of drugs. You don't get kicked out for that -like ifthey asked you, you say yes, I do have a drug, and you get to stay. But you know, ifl say, Hey, I took a... like lets say there's some, like if you steal a soda or something you get kicked out for that, and possession of drugs you don't?? I don't know, it's just strange. I don't like the honor system. So you wouldn't report it because you wouldn't choose to support the system? I think to some degree I don't. What else? what other reasons would make you not want to report it? I guess I just don't think .. I don't know, to me it's just too much of a .. too me the punishment is too severe for lying, cheating or stealing. That's just what I think. Anything else? No. 20. Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to approach? Well, most of em are easy to approach. Most of em. Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. They're easy because, like I have a computer science program due Monday, and the teacher's like "You can call me at my home if you have a problem, or e-mail or whatever." So, in that way they're accessible. [In listening I'm picking up some hesitation I failed to catch and follow up on.] Have you been able to establish close working relationships with a member or with members ofthe W&Lfaculty? Nope. 21. What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? Miserable. For me the whole social life at Washington and Lee is geared around fraternities and sororities. So ifyou're not involved, there's nothing for you, basically. And that's going to be all minority students, basically, with the exception of maybe two or three. I think there were two or three, or there may be five of them now. Maybe four or five in fraternities. How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? Not important at all. That's why I'm not in the fraternity scene, because it's nothing but a bunch of drunk people. Drinking is not that important to us. I'm not going to go to a party just to get drunk. But do you drink sometimes, or do you abstain entirely, or is drinking just a small part of your life. It is not even a part of my life. I had a daiquiri last night, but that's once in blue moon. It's not like I go out and drink every weekend. Months go by without a drink. So it's not even a part. How important to you are drugs at a social event? Have no importance at all. Do you see it out there? Actually, I'd have to say no. I know it's there. I know people are using it around, but I don't know any. I've heard talk of it but I'm not around it. 22. What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? Sometimes I'll go. If they have a good band, just to hear the music or whatever. How would you evaluate or describe any experiences you may have had? I've had my share of negative experiences. Any other kind ofnegative experiences besides being asked to leave? Let me think. That's the only kind I've personally experienced. My friends have had other experiences. 23. Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. I enjoy the P.E. classes. I don't like the swimming requirement, but that's OK. I don't like to swim. But other than that, everything's been OK with the PE classes. I probably haven't used the athletic facilities other than that. I go watch the teams sometimes. I used to play basketball, so I go watch. 24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? I don't think there are any opportunities for dating Washington and Lee students. Why is that? There are some black men here, ifthat's what you 're talking about. Yes, there are some. I 've dated some people at VMI. I guess there are opportunities but we've got less than 10 black men here. Not a big field. A lot of the girls here date from VMI, most of the black girls do. We have no black couples at W&L, made up of two W&L students. That doesn't occur. Since I've been here, I've seen a grand total of one couple, and that's it. That's all I've seen since I've been here! Usually the black girls date black guys from VMI. And the black boys here, I don't know. I think a lot of them end up dating white girls. That's what I've noticed. 25. Have you ever considered transferring from Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yes, I've thought about it, especially at the end of my freshman year. Why/why not? I guess I was unhappy here. But I decided to stay because I'm close to my friends and I'm getting a good education. I thought OK. We were all going to live together, so I thought I could do it. So that's why I stayed. Then after sophomore year, the grades are too low to go anywhere so I'll stay here. But I don't think that really played any part. I think I just said that. I think it was basically the roommate factor. I had developed a close circle of friends and I think that's what made me stay. Ifyes, what factor(s) influenced you to stay? 26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? Right now I have. I work as a lab monitor on Thursday nites. Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? Nope. 27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. I would definitely do that. I'd be willing to recruit other students because I think the only way that this situation for minority students can get any better is ifwe get more. If we get more minority students, I think it would be better. And I'm talking about African-American students. I'm not talking about Caribbean students, because I think that's something I'm noticing, that there seems to be, this year, 9 minority freshmen in the freshman class, and out of that 9 I believe 3 are African-Americans, and the other six are Caribbean students. They tend to go off and join fraternities and sororities, so it's a different thing. I just think they could do a lot more to recruit African-American students. I don't know what they're