#29 INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE 
1. 	Have you decided upon a college major? 
Ifyes, what? 

Yes. I have and it is Mass Communications/Journalism. 
2. (Ifthe answer to question 1 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GP A) in your major field? 
I believe it's possibly a 2.5, somewhere in there. 
3. 	What type ofdegree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? BA 
4. What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? I'm going to re-enter college. I'm going to go for my master of fine arts so I can enter the film industry. 
In what aspect? 
I want to direct. 
Have you done any directing in the theater here? 
No, I don't like live theater. 
5. Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your undergraduate program? 
yes 
6. 	While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? Yes I No 
ffyes, please give the denomination, and the type ofchurch activities in which you participated. I attended, but I was not personally active. My mother is Baptist. So you just went to church with her, basically. 
Yeah, and when I turned 16 I told her I was not going to go after 104 Sundays, and I turned 18, I've been twice since I turned 18. 
What made you decide 104? 
Well, 2 x 54. I decided that after I turn 18 you can no longer make me go. I went once for a job. this guy was in the church that worked for UPS, and I went one other time cause it would have been a lot easier to go than not go. 
How would you characterize your church involvement in Lexington? 
I have none. 
7. How would you compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? 
I probably did more extra-curricular activities in high school, because I get paid for almost everything I do at W&L. So I think of it as a job. 
What do you do that you get paidfor? 
I work on the SAB sound system, my work study is the television station, and TV's also like one of my hobbies, I guess, and then I work at the Chavis House, as house manager. 
8. 	How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? W &L literature W &L admissions counselor Relative Adultfriend Peer Other 
A friend of a relative said she heard about this school and got applications sent to me. It was 
someone on the board of directors. so I got it in two days, overnighted to me. 
9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? 
Not, I don't know. I wasn't very heavily recruited or anything. I don't -I did the Washington Chapter dinner for accepted students, and then I think I had one phone call. And that was it. 
10. 	Didyou visit the campus before you matriculated as a student? 
Ifyes, under what circumstances? 
Visited on your own 
Participated in the Summer Scholar's Program 
Visited during a Prospective Student Weekend 
Other: 

I was here for prospective weekend, March 94. There were four days here. 
What sort ofactivities were there? They had like an open meeting for clubs, and then I was staying at the Chavis House, cause my host was there, and everyone got here on a Thursday night, so I guess we partied Thursday night, and I got accosted by security Thursday night. they said some people were roaming around in Gaines that didn't belong there, so security came. It was me and another perspective, and we got escorted back to the Chavis House, and they promptly told us to stay in for the rest of the evening, so of course we went out. 
Were you drinking up at Gaines, was that the problem? We came to see the school, it was me and another minority student running around Gaines, just looking at the place, and people called security on us. We did not belong up there. That was, like I'd been here four hours and that's what happened. People got[], and they said we shouldn't go out, and then there was a party in the country so we got in the car and drove way out there. So what else did you do? We attended two classes, one of mind was geology, one probably economics, I don't even know, and then, I don't know, we just had the normal prospective weekend stuff. I know I roamed around. I know I didn't go to everything. I roamed around, went over to VMI, walked around the campus here, walked around the cross country trails here. And then they had one big meeting for most organizations, and you could go meet a few people that worked on the radio station, or whatever. So I remember talking to the radio guy, cause I upset him. I was talking about the band and I was like "This is the worst band I've ever heard," and it was his favorite band. And he had it's tee shirt on under his dress up shirt, and I just totally slamming his band, and he was "That's one of my favorites" and he whipped out his shirt, and I was like "I'm sorry. I think they still suck." I remember talking to him and that was a lot of fun. And you meet other prospective students that way. I remember, one of my friends now I met when I was a prospective. She thought I was too weird to let in the room. She's my friend now. I met her at the end of my freshman year once of twice, the beginning of my sophomore year she ended up living next to 
some really good friends of mine and she was like "I remember meeting you when you were a 
prospective, and I thought you were weird. I didn't want that girl to bring you over or anything" 
"Sorry." 
What kind offeedback did you get from the other minority students that weekend. 
From the students that were already enrolled? 
Um hum. 
Students, I guess one thing they said was if you can survive here, as a minority student here, then you can survive anywhere. I remember hearing that like twice. They said it was a lot about what you do here. I mean if you want to sit in your room, you can sit in your room. Ifyou want to go out and do something, you can go out and do something. Ifyou want to join a fraternity you can do that. So, they were pretty good. This was probably coming from three students. We did have a minority panel discussion. Curtis was like a first year law student, and some other students, from seniors down to freshmen. And, they had a big discussion. It wasn't as negative as the feedback they get now. 
Students are saying more negative things to prospectives? 
Yeah. I'm saying more negative things. But, in general I think it's not any where near as uppity as it was back then. 
Uppity meaning what? 
In the conversations. They were just like. like we had a panel discussion when we had a minority prospective weekend here within the last month, and I missed the beginning, but most of what it was when I got there, which was probably the last two thirds, and after when you get to talk to students individually, it was "This is not the best place to come to be a minority student. And then people tried to pump it up saying, "But, you should still want to come here, and if you get here it's not really that bad." But more than not, it was like "It's bad. The social scene here is horrible." For women here especially I think, it's just probably the worst place to come. Some guys think that. Some guys get out of it, some guys don't. But by far, there's more -last year especially, I think pretty much everybody told every prospective student never to come here, and then this year is probably, in general they probably try to tone it down a little bit, but it's still more negative than positive. 
You 're saying there was a minority prospective weekend here a month ago ... Yeah, there was a minority student prospective weekend, most people were from Florida, it seemed. And there was still, this is still, it's hard to be a minority student here, there's still a lot of "This is definitely the south, don't think it's not." For women, you know, they try to, it's what you make of it, but most women there don't make much of it. Much women who are students here don't make much of it, so they didn't have much to say that was anywhere near good, aside from hang out at VMI, or take road trips. Andyou said, you're saying more negative things .. I said, I've been saying negative things for years. I got here. I think the prospective weekend I had was just -I think W &L has the best advertizing crew there is, cause that was so fake. It was unbelievable. IfI had put that same show on that they put on for us, whether or not it was a show for them .. for me to do it, it would definitely be an act. It would be huge, just an Oscar award or something. But they just laid it on thick, and I think it was a, I think for me, when I got here, and after being here for two months, I was -This place was not healthy at all, in almost any regard, from going out, seeing your room, watching TV, just walking through the halls. Anyhow, it comes down to what you make of it. But you have to-a) when I got here fraternity rush was like day three. So instantly I was kinda on the outside. Started off, probably minority, then independent, then I pretty much -it cut all my friends right there, cause I was the only independent on my entire hall. So, people I lived with are not that exciting ifthey're gone all the 
time. So from that point on it just kinda went downhill. So I figured out quick. 
There's more questions about that. The rest ofthis particular question is, please describe your 
reactions... 
Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. 
What were your reactions to that prospective visit you made? 
I thought it was a beautiful.. I came here seriously looking at this school, cause I had just got my financial aid award letter. I got it in the mail the day I came for prospective weekend. I was opening it in the car on the way here. So, when I got here, I was think that this could truly be, definitely in the top three that I had to consider. When I got here I thought, It doesn't seem that bad, and I have -Thursday night was not the greatest first response, security accosting me. And then, people I was hanging out with were one of the guys was from my home town, from Manassas, I'm not even really from there, but -and so talking to him wasn't that bad. But, it didn't, and after my walk, it's probably the location that sells the place more than anything. And I had an aunt lived in Roanoke. And so I'm like, "well, it's not really that far. I have relatives that live relatively close by, and I know a lot about Roanoke." So I was thinking it's a beautiful campus, and everyone talks to you. It's different, cause you're a prospective, so everyone says hi, wants to be friendly. It seemed like the whole school just put on this massive face. And then when I got here, no one talked to me. It's like, "no, I can't talk." I don't know if it was cause I was a freshman or what, but I can tell you right now, most people didn't talk to me. Other freshmen, I had friends, but most freshmen were doing fraternity things so they're so rapped up with that they can't do anything else. And then, definitely, that prospective weekend, everyone talked. You end up meeting all these prospectives, and everyone's talking to all the prospectives in general, so it seems like they're talking to you. you see them again. You get here Thursday, and it seems like they partied all the way till Sunday, and we leave on Sunday, so you never get to see like study day. Bring somebody in on like, let them see a Sunday. We left Sunday morning. So Sunday morning, everyone's recovering from Saturday night, they go eat brunch, stuff like that, and you don't see them studying until like two three in the morning on Sunday night. So, I don't know, I though it was definitely very fake. 
But you didn't think that then. 
No, then I though "Oh, this place is beautiful, everybody's nice, there's a lot of money down there," I don't know. It didn't seem like it was that big on fraternities. you see them around, but you just don't -I learned, They told me it was a big fraternity school, but people that were our hosts had their own house. I was staying in the Chavis House. They already had their own house, it seemed like it was all good, and they knew everybody. I talked to two or three people that were already at the end of their junior year, so they already knew enough people. Sorta like where I am now. I know enough people to go, if I had a car I could go find a party in the country like I did last week. So they were already set up, but for definitely the first I don't know cause of them, but the first year was horrible. And then last year wasn't really that great until -probably not at all. It's probably not really that good a school right now, now that I think about it. 
Andyou're a junior. 
But, yeah, I've been here too long to go. How does that sound? 
1Oa. Was W &L your ... 
First choice 
Second choice 
Third choice 
Less than third choice 

I really didn't know anything about W &L, it was just -when it came out to the end -I 
applied to fifteen colleges -so when it came out to the end, it was in the top three. 
1Ob. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... 
No other 
One 
Two 
Three 
Four 
Five 
Six or more 

1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? 
None 
One 
Two 
Three 
Four 
Five 
Six 

13 accepted me, one denied me, one wait listed me. 
11. 	What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? Relatives wanted you to come here Teacher advised you Good academic reputation Good social reputation Offered financial assistance Offers special programs you wanted Tuition lower than similar colleges High school guidance school counselor advised you Private college counselor advised you Wanted to live near home Friend suggested attending Recruited by college representative Recruited by athletic department Graduates go to top graduate schools Graduates get good jobs Religious affiliation or orientation Size ofcollege Not accepted anywhere else Rankings in national magazines 
First, and foremost, probably the financial aid award I got. My mom had already told me she wasn't going to pay for school. I had to foot it. So this place was the easiest place to foot it myself. Best package I got. The next best was at JMU, which I probably should have gone to. Anyways, it's still one of my favorite schools, probably cause I didn't go. I don't know. I liked the fact that it was a smaller school. On my perspective weekend I liked it. Now that I'm here, after being here not even that long, it was definitely too small a school, and it's still too small a school. you say something and you can hear ten minutes later someone quoting you. Someone you don't even know. So, I don't know. Definitely first and foremost the financial aid letter, award package. And then I don't know. My high school counselor didn't do anything, they sucked. That was about it, then. 
Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? 
Not based on my perspective weekend, cause I had gone to other perspective weekends, this was probably the better one. 
12. Once you decided to enroll at W&L, what was the reaction offriends and relatives? 
Those that knew of W &L thought it was nice. Most people didn't know. I'd tell them it was in Lexington Virginia, not Kentucky, and then, most friends were just, "Oh, that's great." Actually most people at my school had never heard of the school, except for John Rogers went there four years, three years before I went, so that's the only reason I knew, cause his Dad was the junior high gym teacher, that's the only reason. Most people didn't care. I didn't care. 
Were there negative images about W &L that made you think seriously about not coming? 
The fact that it was not a diverse campus. I was a little worried about it. The fact that it was not a diverse campus and the fact that it was such a large fraternity dominated school, which I didn't know to what extent till I got here, but I knew probably prospective weekend that it was a frat school. 
13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? No, I did not. I actually thought the university was a lot -well socially it was a lot worse than I had anticipated. Due to my wonderful Prosepective weekend. And then, academically, it just didn't seem to be, I guess, what class did I take? Some classes seemed interesting, some classes just did not. And some classes I thought had to be done. Some of the required classes seemed like they were just a chafe, but I did them anyway. But I don't think it was what I had expected at all. I seriously considered transferring out of here, pretty soon. I was actually thinking about transferring by Thanksgiving. This place was bad. 
So, it was different academically and socially. Academically in the sense that there were a lot of courses you didn't like .. 
I took an English class here, which wasn't that bad, but for the required classes it just seemed like, to me it was a huge waste of time. Just cause it seemed like I'd rather get here and then start doing something, rather than get here and then do more high school in a different location. I know, especially fall term, like, well don't take too many abstract things, you want to get settled, and all that stuff, and I was like -I'm in college. People who take forever to relocate or readjust themselves, they're not my problem, but they should adapt faster, I guess. But as soon as I got here, I was, some ofthese classes are just boring. I'd rather do something else. I couldn't do any J school classes -I did, but you're not supposed to. And then I was taking a geology class, which was really exciting, except the guy wanted you to know everything -these people that were my, I even had like help in the class -People that were majors were like, we don't even know this stuff, I don't know why you have to know this. This is a 100 level course. So, but it was a good class. I won't say I didn't learn. Some classes I learned, some classes I just sat there. I try to go for learning, but I really got slowed down when I got here, cause I was on such a roll when I got here out of high school, and then to come here and just do high school in a different location, was just kind of bad. I look at this place as high school now, especially after being here almost three whole years. 
Why is that? 
It's just. It's too small. It's small enough to become a high school. I went to a high school that 
actually had more students than this. 
So it's not academically like high school, so much as it is ... 
Well now, it's to the point where -well socially it's definitely like high school -just right out of a 
cheesy movie, or something. And then, academically here, since it's -the older you get the more narrowed your subjects become, which is good, so you're kind of focused in a field. But, to have to go through gen eds -people who take it, to be able to do pass fail classes and just shoot all their gen eds all at once, I don't see how they do it. they just must be wasting their time. Academically I can even compare it to high school because at my high school classes were each an hour and a half long, so classes here are shorter than my high school. This place has less 
students than my high school, so and then, the schooling -for an hour and a half long class, we even got lectures for an hour and a half. Ifwe didn't get lectured for an hour and a half, we got lectured for 45 minutes. Then they made a rule that they can't get lectured for more than 45 minutes. Most teachers didn't really pay attention. Then you'd have hands on. Let's say it's a science. I took double science senior year, so then you have like -you're gonna work in a lab or something, you're gonna do something with your hands, you're gonna be dissecting sharks or something like that, or you're gonna be doing part ofyour math homework, you know. It seemed like, when I got here as a freshman, well my aunt even told me, when you get to college you teach yourself, cause they stop teaching you, so .. Which is kinda true, but it's still kinda high school, cause , I don't know if I taught myself in high school or of I don't teach myself here, but it's definitely like high school in the regard that you just -I don't know, it seems like the professors are there for you, you have to go hunt them down, well it's not really hunting them down, but it seems like they're lecturing. some of the lectures are not really on the topic at all. and you can just totally zone out and come back and still understand that they're not anywhere near where they're supposed to be, or whatever they're talking about is really not relevant, and you zone back out again, and then come back in, and then they might have started. I had one class that the guy didn't do anything. He just rambled on and on and it was just a conscious train of thought was all it was for an hour, three days a week. So in that regard I probably learned more by skipping class. Cause I could read without having him talking to me all the time. 
Ifthe school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the campus, please describe how it differed. 
14. 	Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. How have you dealt with it? 
My greatest challenge at W &L has probably been social more than academic, cause academic I don't think is really, I mean academics are academics regardless of what race you are or what sex you are or anything, what fraternity you're in. The professor is just going to go ahead and grade it based on whatever you do, so socially is the hardest thing to do here is to get ahead, or be accepted as an independent. I would say as an independent. I don't look like a minority. I look like I'm mixed and I'm not, so it's probably easier for me to be accepted than some other students. So I could say as an independent regardless, it's probably The hardest thing to do here. That's probably the greatest challenge is to deal with, to have an equivalent social life to the fraternity system without being in a fraternity. and you have to se it on people. And it starts off, you know, independents, since you're not in a fraternity, you hang out with other independents. So you have to start the whole thing based on other independents. So you can't even base it on hanging out at fraternities, especially during freshman year, when all the people you really know are all pledges. So you have to base it on other people that are independents and they're doing the same thing you're doing and you're trying to just do it, and it doesn't come out as a fraternity system of independents, it doesn't come out like that at all. Definitely a lot smaller. I won't say that I know a lot, or now, back then I probably knew a lot fewer people than probably someone equivalent to me in a fraternity, but I knew them a lot better, probably, the few people I knew. 
Because.. 
Cause I didn't have to deal with the other 3 0 or whatever 18 people in the pledge class and memorizing all the three years of brothers ahead ofme. I didn't need to know all that. 
So what did you do together? What kind oflife did you make for yourselfas an independent? 
You can do anything you want, now. 
I know, but what did you do? 
Back then, we just sat in our dorm rooms and drank. That was pretty much it. We'd make it out to the fraternity parties and drink. And of course they gave you natural light, cause you're not a fraternity member, and then, or we'd get women get us beer or alcohol, and if there was ever hard alcohol, we'd never get it, they'd just give you beer. So, that's pretty much what we did. We did a lot of inside drinking and watching TV, and, I don't know. When I first got here I didn't smoke marijuana or anything, so then a lot of people did that, I'd just sit in the room and just keep drinking, but eventually I got hooked on that, so -it's there and these people aren't dead, and I was just like "Drugs are bad." and these people are still alive, still at W &L, still functioning, so I mean it probably started from that. But, definitely a small room of people that just sat around and drank, is how I got started. 
And then eventually you smoked marijuana more .. 
Well, not even. Everyone graduated this school with a drinking or drug problem, I'm a firm believer, so kept on drinking. 
15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? 
Probably worse academically than in high school, just cause in high school a lot of things were so easy. Versus here, where there's a lot ofthings that are just, I won't say easy, there's a lot of things that I'm just not concerned with, so it's just like, I'd rather just focus my time on what I really want to do, and the other things which have to be done, I'll do to pass, or I'll do .. or if it's something interesting, something I jump into the class and say "All right, I can't wait to take this class so I can learn something. Like religion Hebrew, Old Testament. I jumped in there and was really excited about it. But then there's some classes where, I took a psychology class here where I took it because it fit into my schedule, and I got there, wasn't excited, didn't care about .. but the whole class fit in as a general requirement, and I didn't care at all, and I passed, but I didn't care. It was too early in the morning. 
16. 	What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? x 
Undergraduate library 
Science library 
x 

Computer facilities. 
x 

Writing Center. 
x 

Tutors in the disciplines. 
Study groups.  
x  Public lectures on academic subjects.  
x  Language lab.  
x  Visiting professors in their offices.  
x  I took the study skills course which was of almost no use except for one thing, it  

was pretty much a waste. And the library's [?] related to that topic, I guess. [I have no idea, in 
retrospect, what he meant by that remark.] 
Do you have suggestions for the development ofthese or other facilities? 
Um.. I think the writing center needs to be open longer and for more subjects, cause it seems like they just come in there and have them proof papers about English, or proof papers about some other subjects, it works like that. They should have either .. definitely the writing center stays open longer than it does, it not a writing center for each subject, like J school has it's own library. Just toss a writing guy in there a couple hours you'd have j school writing guys over there, cause journalism writing is a lot different that English writing, scholarly writing. That's probably about it. The library's pretty good. Maybe more computers, cause there's more people that don't have computers, I guess, cause you seem to have a real problem getting ... More laser printers, that's for sure. And to change all the printers in Newcomb, that'll be good, cause those are the worst on campus. 
17. 	What factors contribute or contributed to your selection ofa major course ofstudy? 
Promise ofearning a handsome salary after graduation, 
Interest in the particular academic discipline, 
College friends recommended this major, 
Adult relative recommendation etc. 
Other 

I took a summer job and I really liked film, so I came back to school to do as close to film as I could do, which was Mass communication. But prior to that I had taken a television class in the J school. I don't know. I always liked movies, regardless, so I probably just picked it cause it was, I don't know, easy and I'd probably pass enough classes in there to sort of work, I don't know. No. I would have to say it was probably cause I like movies and everything else at this school I was not interested in at all. 
18. 	Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? Ifyes, please describe that change. 
Yeah, I would say so. I applied as a geology major and got here, I was much more interested in economics, but I guess officially I've changed my major from what I thought it might have been, geology, well I guess it was undecided, to mass communications, probably the official change. Cause I jumped over to the j school when I was a freshman. Which was kind of exciting. I took another class that slowed me down. It was so utterly useless -it was a waste of my time. 
In the J School.. 
Introduction to Mass Communication, J school 101, probably the biggest waste oftime, Professor Yoder is probably one ofthe worst professors I've ever had in my life. He should retire. 
19. 	Ifyou saw a person or group ofpersons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as 
an honor violation? Please elaborate. 
I doubt it. I mean, if they're stealing, possibly, that could be bad. But ifI'm walking down the hall and I see somebody carrying someone else's TV out of their room, I don't know what's going on. Lying, I think everybody here winds up lying every day anyway. Even though they're from the smallest little white lies to something that's not really major. Like, sorry my paper's late. The printer broke. And meanwhile they were still typing it. Or cheating. I don't know when people are cheating. I don't know. I'm not going to stalk them. IfI know, I'm really not going to care. It's their life. 
20. 	Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to approach? Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. 
Some are easy. Some are easier than others. Some are just. Some are very, outside of class. Some in class they don't seem very friendly and outside of class they're gone, or they definitely don't seem friendly. They seem like "Why are you talking to me now? And then there are some that always say hi to you, some that always ask you what's going on. You don't always have those professor all the time, but once -some professors you have once and they keep talking to you. And some professors you have once that still don't know who you are at the end of the class and if you talk to them they're still like "What?" and if you go to them with a problem you have to remind them about you and they still don't know who you are. Some professors are just not approachable at all. 
So it varies a lot in your experience .. 
Well, yeah, I mean you can't just say, you can't generalize. you get out of here and you wind up having 26 different professor, something like that, it's kinda hard to just say yes or no. 
Have you been able to establish close working relationships with a member or with members ofthe W&Lfaculty? Yeah, I have. 
Would you describe that? Probably just deMaria, my academic advisor and work study boss. And then, some people over in the j school, Professor Jennings for film, and then Professor Schwab in Geology, I still talk to cause he's my original advisor. I still say hi to most professors I've had, except for the ones that I either didn't like or found hard to approach. Yeah, I can say that I have some friends that are faculty. 
21. 	What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? 
Fraternity system should be with the .. I would have to say there should be a student center created and have a nice large one and at the same time they should have every dorm counselor be an independent. And they should keep winter rush forever. But they'll probably change back in five years anyway. 
How would the dorm counselors being independent .. how do you envision that working? 
Well, if you are going to see your dorm counselor, cause you see them the moment you get to your hall, when you get here and your parents are still unloading your stuff. Ifyou know that your dorm counselor, you see them constantly, you know that they're independent, and more often than not they are juniors, or they're even sophomores, some of them are even seniors. They've probably established themselves in their independent life, even by the end of sophomore year. During sophomore year it's probably harder but they still have enough friends that come around. And you see these people and lets say they have winter rush, you see those people the entire fall term. So you can have these nice dinners, but you can always see your dorm counselor is always doing something, they're doing something. Being independent isn't that bad. They have friends that come by, friends to go see, friends that they are talking about, so you know that there are things going on. And with independents versus fraternities, they don't always say, Tim from Chi Psi, they don't have the association, like my friend Jagger did this one time. You don't have this association. So if they did that and had a student center one year I think fraternity enrollment would drop. Some people here came to this school for the fraternities, and they can have an independent dorm counselor and still join a fraternity, and people will still join fraternities, but at least it's a way. Something like rushing almost. There's a sense, you can see what's going on. Especially of you look at Graham Lees. Ifyou took the 20 dorm counselors Graham Lees has and you made em all independent, it would be like .. From the time those freshmen get there, on Saturday afternoon when the doors unlock, they're helping em move in, and they start talking to them. And they have the dorm counselor meeting and some people won't like the dorm counselor and some will. It always works like that. But it would definitely affirm visual comparison to fraternity life. 
How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? 
Honestly, there's nothing you can do, you can't do anything at Washington and Lee without alcohol. That's the way it is. I try do make my TV show, can't do that without alcohol. I tell people alcohol is there, people show up, and I give them alcohol and they show up and get on TV. So you can't get them to do pretty much anything without alcohol. Food is a driving factor. Even down in the General's monkey, they just started serving beer there now. They had a nice turnout prior to beer, and with beer people showed up and everything. They picked a bad day to do it, but still, they even wanted alcohol there, so you can't do anything here without alcohol. You can't go to the football games without alcohol, can't go to lacrosse games without alcohol. 
You personally can't go to them without alcohol? Oh, this is not me, oh. This is -oh -me personally I can do a lot without drinking or drugging. But just like to see what's going on, be informed, but the school as a whole, alcohol is at every social event, believe it or not. Even down to hanging out in Lee Chapel. Blast. That's what they make flasks for. So, say more about you and how often you use .. I'm personally not, alcohol never favorite drug of mine. I got here, I'd say I drank a lot after I got here and first when I got here, and -when I got here out of high school and I was sober driver[] half the time, and alcohol wasn't all that exciting. When I got here it still wasn't exciting, so although I drank beers before I got here, a little bit of hard alcohol, and then I after got here in my freshman year, I just drinking 40s every night. So you drank a lot from being here. From being here, yeah, cause you can't do anything -there's nothing here. There's almost no event here you can't get alcohol, especially the parties. Parties are based on alcohol. So the availability ofit made you do more ofit? Yeah, then you can ask anybody you want, well not anybody, you can ask people you knew that are over 21, and they'll go get you alcohol. That's why we were drinking in our rooms. We were drinking beer, you know a six pack, not even a six pack. Ifyou buy a 12 pack for four people, or three people, Oh we're trashed. And now, 4 beers, now, after being here so long, it's probably still a nice little buzz, but I wasn't as hammered as I thought I was. or as hammered as I was back then. But it's at every social event. It's everywhere. 
How important to you are drugs at a social event? Drugs aren't at every social event. Let's see, how important to you ... Well for me personally marijuana is more exciting than alcohol. I like it. It's a lot more thought provoking. Alcohol I think makes you blatantly stupid, but marijuana's fun. I actually don't do marijuana at social 
events. That would be illegal, but I'd have to say, I attend more social events sober than in any 
other state, but drugs at some social events are fun cause marijuana's relaxing. 
So you do do some marijuana at social events. 
Well not at social events, but prior to getting to the social event. It's illegal, I don't just want to 
whip out a joint or something. Get arrested at Chi Psi. 
So you do it in private situations and then go out. 
Yeah. The same way I learned how to do it when I first started freshman year. 
Cause that's what your friends were doing.. 
Well, and it's illegal. You don't want to just take it anywhere, you don't travel with it. You 
definitely don't just like smoking it by a bunch of people you don't even know. 
22. 	What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? How would you evaluate or describe any experiences you may have had? 
My experience with the Greek association here is solely used for the party scene, the social scene. That is it. I don't hang out there when there is not a party. I don't visit anyone that lives there. I think in all my life I've visited possibly, during daylight hours I think I've visited 4 friends in 4 different fraternities one time a piece. 
So how would you evaluate or describe .. 
Parties, everyone's drunk, cause another social event full of alcohol. And they're out trying to get women, basically. I think fraternities are use as one large pet [pep?] service and they each pay a few grand plus a year to have women come to their house get drunk and then that's it. So, me being an independent non female, I'm not really to utilize there so I just drink and leave. 
Do you feel welcome, or irrelevant, or .. 
Well freshman year I didn't feel welcome at all, and last year I hardly ever went to fraternity parties. Actually most of this term I hardly ever go to fraternity parties. But I mean I guess now I go. Enough people know me now that when I get there I can say hi and see like a lot of people. I guess most of the fraternity parties I wind up going to are the ones you .. I'm not a big band person. I think bands are, fraternity bands don't sound that great, so I go to houses I know people, and I normally know people I can talk to. So I choose some place where there is a constant flow of people and I can see people that I want to talk to. So Sig Eps pretty good, on nice days you can go outside, underneath the balcony thing, sit there and talk. Chi Psi's the same way but I don't like Chi Psi. Sigma Chi's the same way, but I really don't know them and I think they just utilize the freshman class every year. 
What do you mean? Sigma Chi just goes through the freshman class, females, each year, and so their whole thing is all about the freshman class females. So most females here had their, spent a nice share of their time at Sigma Chi until they found out they went through the whole freshman class, and then they never go back, or hardly ever go back. So .. they don't care, because there's a whole nother class of freshmen coming. 
23. Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. 
I've only taken two PE classes here. They both were a lot of fun. Volleyball and racket ball. I don't play any sports. I could care less about the faculty or teams there. Facilities, I really don't care. I'm into swimming and biking and that's about it. I watch some sports, which I can only say, I watch girls lacrosse, and that's it. I barely watch sports on TV. But with the facilities, I just wish they'd open up the pool. A, I wish they had outdoor volleyball, and then B they should extend the pool hours, because 2 hours at some horrible 6-8 a.m. or 7-9, or like from 12-2 during your lunch is not a very good time for me personally to ever go swim. I don't have that kind of time. 
24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? 
Dating. Here in quotes. Well, I would have to say that I have never dated a W&L student ever. 
With my opportunities, I don't think this school promotes dating because of the fraternity system. 
I think the only time dating really occurs is winter term. 
Why's that? 
Because it is cold outside, it is gray outside, people don't want to go to parties, they don't want to leave their house, so they get a girl friend or boy friend for the winter, until the weather warms up and they take off their clothes and spring term comes. 
And then what? 
And then they all break up and probably never talk to each other again, cause they're weird that 
like that, and then they enjoy spring term -with whoever and however many people. 
Hooking up. 
Yeah, then hooking up comes back in. But winter term people are kind of lazy. I guess the older you get. The more years you've been here .. I guess after a certain point you just want to find a girl friend or boy friend cause you're just tired of the whole hook up world. And that lasts through winter term until spring term comes and then you're part of the whole hook up process. And some people, instead of calling themselves dating, repeated hookups. -where they just hook up with the same person over and over again, so they don't call them dates. They don't actually spend money on them or anything like that. That's why fancy dress is such a big deal. It's just one long night of foreplay, that's all it is. A huge date function and that's it. Date Function, you know. They don't even call it -It's not even a date. So it's just eighty thousand dollar and people stand around dressed up really looking nice with each other for 5 days, and by FD night, day 2 or 3 of that weekend, officially ends Sunday morning with Brunch at the fraternity. I of course just get dates for the night of FD and that's it. 
So what are your opportunities as a W &L student how do you .. 
I probably just shock them to death and ask them out. I've had dates here at W &L, gone out to dinner and things like that, with W &L students, but I wouldn't say I dated one the same sense I dated women in high school. I had a girl friend from another school my freshman year so I was kind of out of the scene, which was really quite good since I wasn't any important anything on the scene. And you're automatically .. if you're in a fraternity you're automatically more important than independents that's for sure. So get out there at some other fraternity house drinking my beer and they're drinking hard alcohol. At some frat guys' house, or something, doesn't make you look special at all. 
You mean to women. 
To women, yeah. 
25. Have you ever considered transferring/ram Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yes. 
Why/why not? Because W &L is too homogeneous, too fraternity dominated and too small. And the women here suck. They're not very exciting .. Very much more southern than I anticipated. Even though there's a lot of people from New York, Maryland, and the rest are from the south. And the southern style doesn't interest you. It doesn't really excite me. All this painted red brick you see outside doesn't excite me either, but -I knew when I was coming here, but when I got here it was a lot worse than prospective weekend had made it seem. So I was ready to go, and then, for being independent I had my few friends, but definitely not enough to keep me here, so I thought when I was transferring. It was like, you people are nice and all, but I can get out of here and meet more people. The other school I was going to transfer to was University of Massachusetts, in Amherst, was the one I would eventually be heading to, but I tried Emerson and some other schools and got accepted, but I wanted to go there, and 17,000 people, 5 college consortium, there's enough stuff going on there you don't need drugs or alcohol to go outside or go party on a Friday or Saturday. 
So you actually applied? 
Oh, yeah, I was done. Accepted,. enrolled, I was out ofhere. I didn't withdraw from W &L, so I 
came back. Actually the only thing that sells this place, and I have to say, 55% ofthese people 
who go to this school now would transfer if it weren't for spring term. That's the only thing ... 
What is it about spring term? 
Six weeks ofpartying. How bout that. You party 5 out of 7 days a week. Out at Zollmans which 
is the closest thing you ever have to a Woodstock. And Zollman's sells it. You have a river there, 
you have pavilions outside, .. but there are enough parties you can find except for like Sunday 
night and probably Tuesday night or something like that. You can find parties from Wednesday to Thursday to Friday to Saturday. And then Monday they probably party because they studied 
Sunday, so party and study again on Tuesday. 
Ifyes, what factor(s) influenced you to stay? 
Spring term was a lot of fun, seeing my friends, and it's a lot of fun, and I guess by that time most people in fraternities are official brothers by then, have been initiated or something. I don't know, the only thing that sold me on the whole thing was Spring term. 
Spring term freshman year? 
Spring term freshman year. Probably the best spring term I've had. Probably this one coming up 
hopefully will be pretty good. But I took hammers and nails so I didn't have any thinking to do, 
and I just parties and it was a lot of fun. So that's what convinced me to stay. 
And that's what made you decide to stay at W &L? 

Well, I partied with my friends, not just with anybody, but it was actually at Zollman's. I love 
Zollman's, so .. Partying with my friends for, I even left early cause hammers and nails was done. 
I went camping that term. And it was just party. Even though hammers and nails really started to 
hurt after 16 days of going there straight, which was a -had to go there on the weekends and 
things like that, but it was still fun. Although it's probably like the first month is fun and the last 
two people do all the work they haven't done. But with hammers and nails you can still find 
something to do. There are enough people out there that are taking easy classes. I didn't even 
know any seniors -I knew probably two seniors that were gonna be going, they were partying up, 
I didn't see them. If I ever saw them, OK, like John Rogers, maybe get a ride out to Zollmans 
with them or something, and that was about it, so I was just partying with my friends. 
And that made you stay at W &L. 
Yup, my friends. Well, just hanging out with em, I mean it's, Zollmans is the place you can hang 
out with a lot of the school, cause fraternities all come together. Sororities all come together. 
Zollmans -you go out there, you can build bonfires, sit in your car, sit in the gazebo, you can run 
around -I even like bands -they even have bands at Zollmans and I never go. I look in the door, 
cut my way through the crowd, over to get a beer or something, then out the back door, like 
freshman year, either to do the whole thing all over again, or over to see like one of the bonfires. 
And as you get to one ofthese bonfires someone's got a keg or more beer, and you can have 
another drink if you need one, and then while you're out there you're like, well hey, this is the 
country, you bump into someone who's got some marijuana so you sit there and smoke, and then 

you go back in so you're drunk and high and now the music sounds really good and you can't see anything, but you're havin a great time. And then your friends are all around you and you're really happy. So you do that for a month. And Zollmans goes on for like three days out of the week. You can have a Zollmans party like Wednesday and then Saturday, so it goes on at least twice a week. 
26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? Yes. I've had quite a few. Last year I worked catering for a while, I worked in the dish room, then I went to becoming a line worker in the Dining Hall, which is a lot offun. It's one big family there. 0 still do that. Next year I hope to be the student manager, most likely. And then, this is my second year, I'll do it another year being the house manager at Chavis House. They pay you half your room to live there. Then, my work-study is that I work for the sound system. This is my second year, and I have one more year, I'll probably be doing it there. And then I think I had one other job at one point. 
Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? 
Probably not, but it's one way to meet a lot of people. So the sound system is definitely a huge way to meet a lot ofpeople. Cause a lot of student bands need them and student activities need them and you winde up meeting a lot ofpeople. And you get there and they know they need you, and half the time -for a long time I didn't know what I was doing, I just hope this thing works, and just mess with it and ..but they're really excited when it all comes together or it falls apart, and I can fix it, they're really excited. But I meet a lot ofpeople. There's things ranging from outdoor concerts for Christian Coalition or Intervarsity to down at Barbs for open mike night down to student bands that just need to goof out at their house and have beer. The DJ is at almost every party here, so he's always, he knows I do it know, so I was like 'you really suck up a lot of my time, let me show you how to do this.' So he knows how to do it now. He actually owns everything himself except for the amplifier part, so he's almost got enough to pay for it, so then he won't be calling me at all, so that's been good. 
27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. 
No. I wouldn't. Well, I can't say .. No, definitely as part of alumni program, no. As myself, just as a student, I doubt it. I haven't done it in the past. I still think this place is a bad place to come if you can go anywhere else. Boston, preferably, go, get out of here. My speech probably has been the same since freshman year. This year I think the prospective weekend is going to come, they're probably going to do the same thing I did and look me and my roommate and say well these guys aren't doing too bad. They got this house, they seem to know people. They don't seem to be lost. I can go borrow someone's car and go drive whereever I want anytime. So these people have rides, they don't even need to do anything. They're not in fraternities, they have their own house! So they'll probably see that picture and come anyway, but I would still tell them all the negatives cause I think there are far more negatives than positives here. I'm from Virginia and this place is south to me. So I would not be recruiting them, nor would I be giving them any money either. After you graduate and they ask you for money every year. They won't get any of that from me. Not for a long time, that's for sure. 
Now we ask some background information: 
28. In what geographical location did you grow up: 
I officially grew up in Alexandria, Virginia. I was born in New York, then moved to Texas, then grew up in Alexandria. 
In what type ofarea or community did you spend most ofyour growing up years? 
Most of my growing up years were spent nine miles outside of DC. A relatively urban 
environment. The suburbs of DC, if you want to call them that. Back before the crime and filth 
and vice spilled over outside of DC boarders. So now it's probably pretty bad, but we moved 
further away, so it's all good. But I would call it the suburbs of DC. It's definitely not as urban as 
DC, so for being so close to that's what we considered urban, so but we have busses and metros, 
so I guess it's urban 
29. 	Describe the type ofhigh school you attended. Urban 
Predominantly 
I went to two different high schools. One in Alexandria, one in Manassas, Virginia. And the one in Alexandria, I think was more minority students, like probably pretty close all around between African American students and Hispanics and Caucasian, so I think it was pretty much the same all the way down. When I moved to Manassas I think it was 85% caucasian and 15% other. 
MAnassas is definitely suburban. 
30 Please give the kin relationship(s) between you and family members in your home when 
you were growing up. 
Just lived with one other person, my mom. 

31. What was the highest level ofeducation achieved by your parents, guardians, or others with whom you lived when you were growing up? 
My mom is a graduate of Cornell university. 
What are the occupations or professions ofyour parents or guardians? My mom works in the legal field, it's um a place that you can't call out of or take paperwork out of or use the internet out of. Some kind of top secret job thing she does. In the legal profession. She's not a lawyer, though. 
32. As compared to other W &L students, how would you characterize your overall social class position (based on parents' education and family income)? 
I am definitely of the poor middle class. 
How do you think this has affected your experience? For me it's probably not very bad, cause with my parents being divorced I got to see a lot and I've taken a lot of trips. By the time I was like 16 I'd been to more than half the states in the US, so now I'm 20 I've been to all of them except maybe 13 and then one country. I've seen a lot, and I go visit enough relatives that you see a lot of different locations and within that, oh come to see us, we'll give you a tour, so I get to see things about different cities like Roanoke or Houston or Florida, or all over Boston. And Georgia. If I stayed in Virginia all the time I'd probably lead a pretty closed sheltered life. Because I've had a lot of experience, just doing general things, stuff not everybody does. I've been to the Alamo more than once, I've been tubing on the Colorado River, so I don't think it really bothers me, cause I've been enough places. Most ofthe people here, talking about money and things, they're not really talking about their house. They're talking about places they've been. And I've been enough places I can share a story all except for 13 states. 
33. 	In general how do you think about yourselffirst at Washington and Lee -­as a member ofa particular racial/ethnic/national/gender group, or as a student? 
Please explain. 
When I think of myself I think independent black male at an all white school. I really don't think of myself as a student. I think ofthis as high school. I've been a student forever. It's kind of -I've never done anything but be a student. I'll be a student for another four years. 
34. How homogeneous do you believe black students are on this campus? In answering please consider racial identification, political perspective, and/or social class position. 
It's.. That's a pretty good question. I have no idea. There's some African American stidents that have been a lot of places, there's some that come from families that have middle class or upper middle class to wealthy life style. There's some that come from really dirt poor places. And then I cam definitely say that political perspective is very diverse within black students. As for the racial identification, I think we all know we're black and we all try to say hi except for maybe one. We don't. I live with three other black students, and I gotta say for the three of us we don't hang out with half ofthem on a regular basis. Half of the black students? Um hum. Honestly, I don't spend that much time with them. Talk to them, have really good friends that stop by, but most of the time I'm doing something else. I do hang out, but not to the extent that I know the inner workings oftheir lives. Two thirds ofthem I know nothing about. I know they're a miinority student, I know I talk to them, I know what's going on, but I don't probe and ask how their mom is doing, or if I care. 
35. How similar or different do you believe blacks and whites are on this campus? Consider the same categories that are mentioned in number 34 above and add any other factors that you deem important. 
I think there's definitely a huge difference when it comes from north/south. When it comes to that it's a huge difference. Between the races. BEcause more often than not I would have to say that blacks are not very supportive that the south will rise again. Or the confederate flag, which can be seen various locations around Lexington and Rockbridge County. As for, for their social class some of the same, political perspectives are probably some ofthe same, but it's probably, black students probably wind up similar to probably the minorities of the whites on campus. Does that make any sense. Yes, black students are similar to the .. the less mainstream. For this school. You can find people here that are very liberal, and then the extremely conservative. I'd say that at this school liberals are definitely in the minority. Whites or blacks, either way you want to look at it. And within that right there, the liberal whites are what blacks more relate to politically. Social class they're probably similar and different in the same difference. You were saying something about south north and how that.. Well this school is a huge southern homogeneous student body. Then you have people from above the Mason Dixon line, from New York, .. you have them. And those are probably the more open minded folks I would have to say, out of my own personal dealings. But then you're coming to the south to deal with a majority of very outspoken conservative southern people. And they're 
here and they have money. They're extremely vocal. They can be as vocal as they want to be cause mom and dad are paying for it. And it's definitely a huge thing to come down to, to be relatives of former slaves and come to the south and have to be reminded blatantly about it day in and day out. That the South will rise again, or the Georgia state flag is a big Confederate flag. All that good stuff. So you're saying that inherently separates the black students from the white students ... it's probably an instant boarder that goes up? Yeah, it's probably an instant boarder that goes up when they get here, -between black students and white students, because you don't know who is your friend and who is not, when you get here, and it takes a while to decifer. And when you get here you have people on your hall, more than likely more than one, that are very outspoken about being from the South. You can probably find the Confederate flag in probably one room in every hall in Graham Lees. Then you have to walk around those people constantly. You see the entire hall is talking to them, so you don't know of those people are with them, or not with them. You become bery paranoid about the whole thing. Or sometimes you just let it go and talk to people ... which is what eventually happens hopefully. If anyone's smart they'll just let it go and talk to people for who they are when they see them and not base it on 'you're talking to Bob who has a huge flag and his door is big skulls and crosses and says whites only .. Does that Happen!? No, I've not seen that [laughing] Could be. I don't know. It's a mental block that can go up and it can come down a little slower than it went up, but it can definitely can come down. Are you saying that the southern content of the consciousness that you see -is the racial part of that, of being a southerner overt, or are you assuming .. No, I think it's .. You have entire fraternities that as minorities you shouldn't even walk into their house. I've never set foot in KA, and I knokw quite a few people that haven't set foot in KA. This year I've been to SAE -I've been there maybe three times my entire life, and that was probably in the fall term only. You see people walking around in KA, and KA can stand for a lot of other things, but you know KA and SAE will not even let minority students be in their fraternity. It's one of those things. So if you're onto something like that, -I know KAs, I know SAEs and I know not all of them are like this, but when you see a frat house and you have four years of people, the house itself represents that. And then you have people from above the Mason Dixon line that have the same kind of mentality as well, as a matter of fact, but they generally don't express it visually and vocally as southerners do. The south will rise again is a motto. Really, you hear that? You can read that. You can pick it up. I genuinely believe there are people that believe it is coming or want to be part of the movement. Yeah, to come to the south and then be reminded that you're in the South, all the time, can definitely put up a mental block. 
36. Do you believe the size ofthe black student enrollment at Washington and Lee is adequate or inadequate? 
I believe it is inadequate. I believe it is just too small. There is not enough. I also believe that the board of trustees would like to keep it the same number, regardless. I think it is totally conscious -keep it the way they want to keep it -keep the school the way it is -homogeneous student body basically from the South. And they do that, I think they have their status quo they want to get to and they make sure it is somewhere around 2.5-3% and they talk about they want to boost it, and they really don't. So they talk about it, and they have a good year, and the next two years after that fall down and then have another good year, never is it good. 4% we're up there! and then the 
"' 
next year falls back down, cause one massive class just graduated and drops it back down, and then they keep it like that. They don't want it big. They know that, They want to keep it small. This could sound like a dumb question, but I'd like you to elaborate on why you think the black student should be larger. It's quite obvious we're not visual here, you can't see us, we're not here. You can spotlight people on campus cause they're black, blatantly obvious -but there aren't enough minority students to be so you could see them on mass numbers kind of thing. I'm not saying to boost way up to 55% or something astronomically huge, cause that will never happen. But at least blow it up to comething like ten where you can see people. Not like one out of every 20 students. Elaborate on what we would gain by that. A, I think it would add a bit of diversity to this school -And B it would allow more interaction. It's like for the people we have here now, for the amount of civil rights they're just having to be involved in, or just talk discussion. Even people who are from the south, you still have to figure out if they're cool or not cool, or ifthey're really gung ho on southern racist whatever, mentality. Ifyou have more black students there's a lot more filtering in. You'll see a lot more and it will be a lot more places and it won't be up to these 12 people that talk and the other 13 that sit in their room, tp have to break out and try to do everything. Try to like make sure they're seen, or just break out and do something mainstream. What do you mean. Well, a lot of black students here just don't do anything. They just like, seriously, sit in their room, they're here cause good grades, good financial aid package, came here for college. They do their schoolwork, they don't go out, they don't socialize, they hardly ever talk to anybody else that's not a minority student. You shoud get out. You're in college. you should enjoy more than in your room watching TV and playing video games. Get outside, enjoy the weather, talk to some people. And they get outside they talk to the same minority students over and over again. Ifyou had more black students, A, black students would be out more than they are and B you probably will have more of them out than playing video games. And for the ones that are out it's still more than you have now. Add a massive amount of diversity. They would definitely fit in with the political perspectives of northerners, and social class of every student. And then you have racial identification, where's religion? I've met a lot ofjewish people here. Always seem to talk. So I'm like alright, keep talkin. 
Do you believe the number ofblack professors is adequate or inadequate? 
No, I think it's horribly inadequate. You ahve 3 maybe, and how many majors at this school? But you still have only 3. I can't think of three actually. I can think of professor DeLaney, Den McCloud, who I don't even knokw what she does, I don't know why she's there. Most minority students don't even like her. I like her, I think she's a nice person, but I don't know really what she does. She doesn't seen to have any power over in the Dean's office. Most minority students feel that wholeheartedly. Then, that's the only 2 I can think of, there may be one scattered somewhere. 
Do you believe the number ofblack administrators is adequate or inadequate? Explain. There aren't enough black administrators at all. 
3 7. 	Should the university offer activities designed to bring new black students together? Ifnot, why not? Ifyes... do you have suggestions? ... 
I have no idea. I do not know at all, I think blacks just need to go do whatever it is that they would do in high school, or that they were inteested in when they got here, and go do that regardless of however many non black students are going to be there. Just go do it, and it should be about self satisfaction. So to pile in there with old minority students -who are already hopefully doing something aside from sitting in their room -doing something that they Wanted to do. Maybe MSA is not really that wonderful a club, or anything. See, ifyou leave it up to the university then you have this kind of shadow around it that's not very positive. It's more like a politically correct thing to do. Which it kinda is, but in the same sense you don't have the same draw. I don't know. I'm very for making everything mainstream. You can have minority anythings, but to stay in and not diversify your location is not healthy at all. You're saying people should get out and mix? I think so. And you have like, over in Woods Creek you have an entire apartment that's just five black guys. I don't know what goes on over there. I don't even hang out with them. I just know it's an apartment with five little black guys vs. they should have broken up or something, then they could all be great friends. I'm sure -hopefully -they have friends that aren't minorities, and they could have had two of them live together and the other three live some where else so that all the roommates they were associated with could have feedback. You live with people you end up talking, you meet their friends and all this good stuff. That's what should be done. Nainstream. Go mainstream. 
Has the Chavis House played a role in your life at W&L? Please describe. Personally I love the Chavis House cause I've lived there two years and will live there another year. When I got here as a prospective I lived there, and when I got here as a freshman I hung out there, so I think it's very good. I think it's very small. I can say this as house manager. IT's a small house, It's an old house. It is a crappy house in some regards and it definitely needs to be expanded. Definitely for social scene just cause there's no party equivalent. There's no minlrity fraternity here on campus it definitely needs to have it's basement gutted or additions or something, but there is no social space. Like if we do a party over there we have to remove all our furniture out somewhere else so there'll be the entire downstairs like a dance room, like strobe lights, all sorts of dancing, the furniture's all gone. and everyone, if you're not going to dance -unless we have a keg, if we have a keg we'll put it in the kitchen which is on the first floor. Otherwise it's kinda like a hall crawl where you go to different rooms upstairs to get a different drink. So you go upstairs to get toasted and downstairs to do dancing -and this works out really well. You get upstairs and you wind up hanging out in my bedroom. One time at the last party had like 17 people in my room. I don't have a big room, but I had people on the floor, people were still drinking, and then there's another room -one of my roommates has like two twin beds -a king size bed -so everyone's got like 40 people sitting on his bed and he's got like 2 chairs. Someone else had a realy small room so you could only cram 4 people in there it was that small, then another had like 7 people and you had people in the hall, playing games or jus tdrinking or listening to the radio. I think each room upstairs had it's own little effect to it -and the downstairs is still going on. They make their way upstairs or downstairs. If they bump into ­Last time it was a Caribbean party and I had to come downstairs with the blender. You see peopel in the kitchen, people still dancing in the darkness -there's still a strobe light so you could still see what's going on. People still coming in and they catch up with me downstairs, I'm still making pina coladas, margueritas, I'm pouring out these things, people were waiting on their drinks. It was a lot of fun, I loved it, put it's definitely not same as having like a basement party room. You can have a band in there if you want, you can get a DJ and just have it going on -vs the Delt house, you got to have security, and then -there was a party this weekend, I didn't even go in. They were charging me three dollars to walk in the door. There were about 12 people over there. The Delt house is not a bad place. Everything's been renovated, so you have ... you have to walk around this side alley cause the party rooms in the back -it's kind of shady looking. So they were charging me 3 dollars to go to this party with 12 people dancing and I was like 'no, that's alright. Seriously, Chavis house, there needs to be a party social equivalent. Then [] relocate to the GHQ for events. I'm not saying we need to have like a huge fraternity house, which is not really a bad idea either, but then if you did that you'd never mainstream anything, cause everyone would live in the same house. definitely need to go mainstream in a party sense cause seriously that's what's going on. Alcohol and parties is what maked up W &L. Fraternity system, and we have no fraterny equivalent to that, so that's why people disapoear, apparently, into their rooms, play video games, probably drink by themselves, I don't know. 
Has the Minority Student Association played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. MSA I think is -it keeps minority students visible, but they really, for me they don't seem to do a whole lot. I'm kind of a fan. I wish they did more. I'm all about mainstreaming, so they spend their money on some things, just kind of fall through vs spending their money on things that would pull more of a crowd, like more parties. FOr this year's black history month they had an event every Tuesday, which is, A, bad because noone goes out on Tuesday so I don't know why they spent this kind of money. B, ifthey had done the same kind ofthing on any party night it would have had more of a pull. But Tuesday night was just a bad night and I don't know why they did it, alright. But then they're just not very mainstream. They have two meetings a month. It's not very exciting. They don't really think about that much. And for like homecoming they. like homecoming '95 they had a big Bob MArley kind of looking thing, which brought a lot of people together. I personally was not working on it. I personally never do anything for the Minority Student Association. Cause I don't have that kind of time and they don't pay me -I get payed for everything I do. Personally I don't spend that much time thinking about it. Don't worry about it. I think they're doing pretty good things, but they're not reaching mainstream anything. What do you think? the title itself is kind of politically correct almost, to a point. It should have a Greek name and then have a party. Then you'd be all set. 
38. Do you believe that it is important that courses in the humanities/social sciences include recognition or study ofworks by persons ofcolor? 
Oh, I guess so. I think there are some classes like that. I would definitely say so. It allows people a different way of thinking. Students that wouldn't normally take those classes or care about that aspect ofthe issue. IT's a needed thing. I wouldn't do away with it -actually probably promote it. 
Ifyou think works by persons ofcolor should be included do you think the recognition was adequate, inadequate, or excessive? Please explain. I -from what I know is that I don't know anything, so it seems like it would be inadequate. I can't honestly say, it seems like from the fact that I don't know anything about it proves that it's not really .. 
39. How would you characterize the climate in the classroom for you [as a black student}? Really not that bad. Every now and then I think I hear something that could be taken in a derogatory or slanted way. Just like things people are saying or just some obscure joke that seems funny to the rest ofthe class which if you really want to look into it could be taken in a not friendly way. But I don't really ponder it. Ifyou had more students I wouldn't be the only black person in my class -that's one thing -in numerous classes. My history of photography class is 
huge, like 45 people, and I'm the only black person there. My film class opened up to 50 people, 
I'm the only black guy there. But I know for most classes I'm the only black person there, so we 
need to have more students. 
So you haven't really encountered any problems .. 
no.. like I said, the professors here don't care. They're about students doing the grades .. I think 
some professors care, but they try not to let it show. 
about what? 
They care ifyou're a minority or not in how they treat you, but I think that the fact that they are a 
professor and are trying not to discriminate against anything or anybody or let their personal 
social views come out, they're trying to keep it all together. 

Ifyou have encountered 'problems in the classroom, how have you dealt with those difficulties? 
40. What is the role ofthe Office ofMinority Student Affairs? I never heard of the Office of Minority Student Affairs. That's Dean McCloud's office. Oh. That's a -she doesn't do much. I don't know. Ifl ever had a complaint against a professor, I thought he was racist or something like that, I'd go there, but then I and most other students feel that she has no power, so you can't stop there. It's nice to have her on your side, but you gotta keep going cause she's -it's almost seen that she's a waste oftime. To stop there, complain to her is nice cause she'll back you, most times will back you for almost anything, and then just keep gomg.. How would you keep going? Talk to the next person. Dean McCloud has almost no power, and you have to keep talking to Dean Manning or Dean Howison or something -and I personally don't like Dean Howison, but, that's just my own personal -actually most people don't like Dean Howison, minority or otherwise. But to stop at Dean McCloud is not good. If my mom wanted to talk to somebody I'd have her talk to Dean McCloud cause she can't say anything but nice things, but if I want to get anything done I have to talk to other people. 
How can the role ofthis Office be improved? I don't know. Give her .. I don't know if she has any power. If it were Dean Manning or Dean Howison in charge of the office of Minority Student Affairs -I know whatever we say to her probably gets to him anyway, but she's an associate Dean, she sits in this office related to nothing, to the Dean's office,, It seems like she's just very far off and she's always writing something. She's not really doing anything. She's not communicationg with anybody -just off by herself. What is she writing? I don't know what she's writing. I don't ever see her talking to anybody. She's some kind of figurehead we're supposed to stop and talk to, if you are really stupid and want to stop and talk to her. Stupid being like if you honestly believe that whatever you say to this woman is going to get done, without keeping it going yourself. So they put her there, and you go talk to her thinking that things are going to start moving, and they were going to move probably to Dean Howison where they will stop. If I talk to her it will go to Dean Howison and he'll toss it on the back burner, Ifl go talk to her and get her support And then go talk to Dean Howison it will probably still go on the back burner, but I can keep talking to somebody else. It's like ifyou want to get anything done go do it yourself. If you stop and talk to her and hope she does it it's not going to happen. Cause she's got no power. We all know it. 
So how could she be given power, what would that involve? MAke her role more important, I guess., I think she carries no weight over there. I think she was placed as a figurehead for black students to go to with any kind of problem and then she tries to decipher where to go from there, and then what she does from there I don't know, I don't think she gets much done. But we're supposed to talk to her -that's probably why she's there, so we have another minority to talk to and when we walk out ofthe office that's going to be it. I don't think that she has any weight over there, hardly any regard, except to have her support you or not support you.. Ifshe supports you or not supports you -if she doesn't support you you'll probably still get it done anyway. Rather have her support than not, but without it you could probably still do whatever you were doing. For the role, I don't know, just give her more power. She blatantly seems to me and a lot of other students like she's just a figurehead to stop and talk to and hope she'll solve our problems -if you're not smart you'll stop and talk. And ifthat's the way it was set up as, every time a student goes and talks to her, it stops by talking to her, and they've done their job making sure things don't get done. And then they keep all the numbers down to 3% repeatedly. Every other year 'We're heavily recruiting.' And the next year they have less students. And it's not cause I keep telling them not to come, I know that, cause I don't get to talk to them. 
41. From whom do you receive the greatest emotional support on campus? Do not use name(s), but please describe the person(s) in terms ofrace, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and position (i.e. fellow student, faculty member, administrator, staffmember). Ifappropriate, include more than one individual and describe the type ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support (i.e. personal, family, religious, etc.) 
I probably use my self. Maybe friends. Definitely not administrators. Staffmembers I doubt. Faculty members, I probably have maybe one or two staff members that really care about how I'm doind or anything, and then the rest I talk to students. IfI have a problem I go to friends first, then just random people. REally I don't rely on family or religion or most other things. Use myself, my friends and probably the one faculty member I actually associate with, who actually cares, who actually asks me like how're you doing. Are things well with you? .. Most people I talk to 'hi' in passing, but that's probably it. I don't think I really have too many emotional problems to break down on. I don't think they mean just with problems. I think they may mean just support in general. Probably the D hall family -crew of line workers, cause we have to hang out with each other for so many hours every day. It gets a very mixed bag ofpeople together to do one thing for an hour every day. You get to see them during lunch and a half hour before when you're eating together. 
What percentage ofyourfriends are black, what white, and what international? 
More white friends than black friends here on campus, cause that's the way the numbers break down. Ifthere's 95 of one thing you're probably going to have more of them. I don't know. I try to talk to a lot of people: Probably something like 70/30 if you really want to break it down. International students I really don't know, I talk to a lot of them, but they're over there in the international house doing those international things. I don't know what they're doing. 
42. Have you experienced any discriminatory behavior on campus directed against yourself? I don't know. I also got stopped by security more times than I should have. 'We heard someone stole a VCR from the C school and it fits your description. where are you guys coming from?' 'We're coming from Graham Lees.' 'So you guys were at the C school?' "No. -do we have a VCR in our hand either, we're walking in the freshman parking lot, man, leave us alone." "Hm. You don't have a VCR In your hand." Where are you guys headed?" "To our car." "You guys didn't 
drop the VCR off In your car did you?" "NO, man, god leave us alone." This really happened? Yeah, it really happened. MOre than once? The VCR incident happened once, but security itself! think is -for a long time -some ofthem are just stupid, they're just dummer than dirt. So has it stopped happening? You are using the past tense. I think it stopped happening cause I think they were harassing more than just me, they were harassing quite a few other minority students who were eventually hjaving their parents call Dean McCloud. I know for a fact three other minority students had their relatives call, have spoken to Dean McCloud about it. So then security's gotten a little bit better in the past year and a half than it was. At least for me. A lot of students are like "Hello, ther are only like 20 black students on campus, you should realize I go to school here, and quit asking me why I'm in Gaines." Like happened prospective weekend. Even though it's prospectives, other students still get stopped. Coming out of a building -"What have you done?" "Oh, man, I'm a student. I'm and Junior! Leave me alone." So, .. Oh well .. So other than security? Other than security probably not. I've never had anyone come up to me and say anything or anything like that. I don't think most people would. Ifthey have anything to say they'd say it behind my back. Ifthey say anything at all. I think it's a fear to come up to someone and say it to their face. Ifyou're gonna come up to anybody and sya "You're this and this and this." Without getting punched. Most people fear that and don't ever do anything. 
What form did that behavior take (written remarks including graffiti, spoken remarks, physical assault, discriminatory treatment). 
Who was responsible for that behavior? 
Individual students 
Student groups 
Greek 
Non Greek 
Faculty 
Staff 
Security 
Leaving aside behavior, do you sense racial tensions on campus beyond what exists in the larger society? Ifso, how do you think such tensions could be eased within W &L? 
Is it worse here than in the real world? With the school so small it's a lot more obvious here than in the real world. I also think there's a lot. I don't know. Take all these people and put them in a tight area and see what happens. You could look at that as one big study, but, I would say it's a lot more visible here cause you have everyone thats a lot more outspoken from the South. I'm from northern Virginia so we don't have this stuff. Where I came from you have MArtin Luther King day. It wasn't mixed in with all these other people who really don't have a national holiday. Like the first time I moved to Manassas I had been there three weeks and I came acroos LEe JAckson King day and it was like "All right. I know I'm in the South now." In Alexandria you don't have that. Here I think it's just a lot more visible than in the outside world. In the outside workd it's certain places. Here you can't get away from it. Like in the real world you know if you go to Mississippi or Alabama you're bound to find it. And it's the South. So how do you think such tensions could be eased at W &L? 
You could bring in more minority students to just have a whole filtering through. Just bring in 
more people from above the Mason Dixon line. That's probably be pretty good. Cut down the 
enrollment from the South for a year -see what happens. Heavily recruit minority students, pull 
more people from, I don't know about the midwest, the northern midwest and west coast, and 
north and then cut down on the bible belt people you're bringing in. And Texas. 
43. Aside from the Honor System do you believe that the student Executive Committee, the Student Conduct Committee or other University judicial committees treat black and white students equally fairly? 
I do not know. I can see how they might give a black student a break, I can also see how they might nail a black student to the wall. It could go either way. I just know some other minority students I know had a run in with the student conduct committee or something and wind up having a bum deal at the very end cause things were neglected to be told to them from the beginning and things like that. So I mean .. it could go either way. I've never had a run in with any of these programs so I wouldn't know, but I would hope they would treat people fairly. But whos to know who you have on there. You could have a house full of KAs pm the bench. I honestly don't know. I would just hope that they would do it fairly -turn a blind eye to race and gender. 
44. Do you believe that the honor system is applied in an even-handed way to black and white students? 
Sure. It's probably obvious. you know who it is. You lie cheat or steal you're going to be expelled regardless of anything. It's kind of broken down for you. You either did it or you didn't do it. 
45. How would you evaluate student publications (i.e. the Ring-tum Phi, the Trident, etc.), the student radio and television stations with regards to opportunities for black students to participate. 
They can participate in anything they want -student radio, I know student managers that are minorities, television, I made my own television show, I never worked in the Ring-tum-Phi or Trident but I'm sure you could if you wanted to. The television station's quite a hassle, to put on a show that is not academic or newsworthy, Not hard for minority students, just in general. I'm trying to come up with a solution for cable two. The only problem is broadsacting on cable two cause Ham Smith over there has a problem with anything that's not news. So if it's social TV he thinks it should be taken off. I'm trying to get something so that all the campus tv is students for students two days a week. Have a club for it. Make it like Holywood, like the studio system -you have people who do cameras, people who do sound, people who say, I'm here to help out. What I do for my show is to produce, direct, edit, everything. I don't have that kind of time. If you just break it down, make it very simple, very club by so everyone can just jump in there -definitely have two people who do nothing but promotion. I have a big plan. W &L studio system TV station, get to watch the programs twice a week. Hopefully it'll come out. 
How would you evaluate them with regard to their treatment ofnews about black students? 
Not much news going on. I don't know. I think it's all done rather fairly. I thinkjounalism itself is done rather fairly. I think the Spectator is kind of a bad publication, but some people probably say the same thing about the Southern Collegian, but to each their own. You have conservatives and liberals all living together, all want to read their own paper. I don't have to read the Spectator ifl don't want to. I read it anyway, just cause I like to be informed. But I think in the journalism sense that everything's done rather fairly. 
46. Do you feel that black students at Washington and Lee today have problems that are basically different from, or basically similar to those ofwhites? Please describe in what way you feel they are different or similar. 
I think they have the same old similar -I think they have some similar problems, like normal day in day out kind ofthings. Most people suffer from the same kind of situations. I think black students probably suffer from the lack of party outlet. Social outlet equivalent to whites. They probably din't suffer from the same kind of things cause they don't go out as much, they don't suffer from gossip, things like that. Might, but.. I see there could be some kind of difference, but I can't really specify but I can see there would be. Probably the major problem they have here now is the fact they're black. And you can tell, it's obvious. How does that effect you? It doesn't really effect my life. Cause I really don't look that black, so it doesn't really effect my life anyway. I've got to tell people I'm black. They probably knew me already ... I'm probably a rare case. Some students don't want to talk to black students because of what other students might think -which is kind of stupid. Some students suffer from that. They'll talk to you when no one else is around. Then when people are around they'll cut the conversation short, or barely acknowledge your existance. Say hi and keep walking. That happens to a lot of minority students. I don't really care. Hardly ever happens to me. Some students, when they realize that happens, they totally shuts off from that person altogether. One of my roommates does that. 'IfI find out that they're just one of those people that is wants to be friendly when no one else is around, well I don't really care. They're not really going to be friends. They're just there when no one else is around." So he cuts himself off from that person? He cuts Them off from Him. He keeps on going with his daily life. "Well, I'm tired of playing with that person, cause they're apparently not grown up." So he keeps on going. I think everyone probably suffers from the same problems. But since there isn't a social party equivalent, we don't have the same kind of problems that white fraternity students have like getting their hazing, or middle of the night phone calls. Getting kidnapped by pledge brothers. All that stuff. Sororities, it's just love and candy and all that. But I think in the day in day out kind of thing they have a lot.although, I would have to say that living in freshman dorms and being black's probably a bigfger problem. Probably a problem they don't have. Some fit in some don't. Sit in their room all the time ..then no one ever comes to visit you, cause you're never out. I'm sure some students are caught up in that where they don't socialize with people on their hall. People on their hall rarely ever talk to them, so they're never talking period. That sits off, ostracizing themselves, which is stupid. Also happened with some students that got here when I was a freshman, came in my class and transferred out. They just didn't talk to anybody that wasn't black, basically. They of course did not fit in, most of them transferred, didn't make it back. 
*47.  Sex  M  
*48.  Age?  20  
*49.  Year in college?  JUNIOR  
*50.  Cumulative grade point average [as of Fall 1996]?  1.994  
*51.  How do you identify yourself in terms of nationality?  AMERICAN  
52.  How do you identify yourself in terms of race?  

Well, I would have to say I am an African American student, for sure. I'm rather color blind. I've grown up with a lot of different ethnic friends, so where you're from, ethnic background, how much money you have doesn't bother me. I see myself as a just black student. 
53. Are there additional comments you wish to do make about any aspects of Washington and Lee? I don't know, I think I rambled on for quite some time. I hop it's all in there. I just have to say I still think this is a bad place to be a minority, and you need to up the minority involvement for sure. Cut down the fraternity system by increasing independents, in general. That's all I have to say.