Donaldson interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: I was very struck about halfway through the event this year, and this was my first Mock Convention, I was very struck by realizing that what I was seeing, I mean, I knew a good bit about the Washington and Lee student body and I knew how conservative it was, and I could feel the enthusiasm and I thought to myself, what has it been like the previous three conventions? How did they get this much 17 enthusiasm up? That's my question. Was there really the same level of enthusiasm? Donaldson: It's funny, I can't explain why and how it happened, but it was not that much different. I mean, I had a different perspective because I was on different sides of the podium for the two conventions, and so I saw it a little bit differently. I didn't see what it was like to be out in the crowd in '92. But if you look at the video and you look at the tapes and you talk to people that were there, I mean, it was a very enthusiastic crowd. People gave standing ovations to Michael Dukakis, which it's hard to imagine really when you think about the place that W&L is. I don't think it was a complete sham. I don't think that many people voted for Dukakis in '88 and I don't think that too many voted for Clinton in '92, but the enthusiasm for the event and for what they were doing was certainly genuine. Warren: Well, I was tickled by it. I just thought it was fascinating. Donaldson: It was a neat experience. Warren: Another thing I read in the magazine is that you're the ones who instigated the idea of having the big video screen? Donaldson: Yes. Warren: That was the first time? Donaldson: The first time. Yeah, the video and the sound part were probably-they were probably my favorite aspect of the whole thing. Bill Parks, who's a W&L grad and has been involved in all three, since '84 he's been involved in the technical production part of the Mock Convention, came up with this screen, and I think they got a bigger one in '96, as is the normal course of history. But we got the big screen and that was pretty dramatic. It made it look a lot more authentic or more like the modern conventions, and we had a pretty good sound system, as well, and tried to keep the music going at all times. We had a few bands that came and played and 18 just tried to make it kind of a really realistic modern convention that way, try to make it feel less like the gym. Warren: It had a very authentic feel to it. Donaldson: Yeah, it's hard to believe it's the same place that they teach. Warren: You got really good media coverage. Donaldson: Yes, we did. We did. That again goes back to timing and the speakers. I think those are the two central components to a successful one. We had interesting speakers, Cuomo especially because of the time. There was still the rumor that he might throw his hat in the ring, and that attracted a lot of people. People giggle about it now, but it was a very real possibility at the time. We had news articles written about Mock Convention and the possibility that it could be a possible place for him to at least hint at getting involved, and he didn't, which was fine, but just the prospect of that got a lot of extra news coverage there. Roger Mudd was a tremendous help in lending some legitimacy. Warren: Tell me about that. What did he do? Donaldson: Well, what we did, we put together two videos before the convention itself. One was directed at getting speakers, speakers and media. It was about an eight-minute video and it was one that we sent out to prospective speakers and news organizations just to say this is a real thing, it's not going to be like showing up at a high school gym. That was also produced by Bill Parks, and that was something that I had worked with especially de Maria on editing and putting together. Warren: Had that ever been done before? Donaldson: No. No, I take that back. I'm trying to remember. I think they actually did a short one before. They did do one, and it was either in '80 or '84. But that was more of a summary of the convention. What we wanted was a selling piece, and so we went up and interviewed Roger Mudd and Senator Warner and Charley 19 McDowell and Steven Danzanski, who was one of Bush's Cabinet members. Here we are, we got the W&L video equipment and just kind of showed up and interviewed all of them and asked them about their Mock Convention experiences, and then came back and put this thing in a media package. It was great because we had these guys saying what a good thing this was. These were mostly people that they recognized and knew wouldn't get involved in suspect undertakings. We were also able to throw in footage of every national speaker who'd been there. There was Clinton in '88, there was shots of Truman and Nixon and all of these different folks, which just kind of really, I think, presented a very attractive marketing piece to the news organizations and speakers, so that helped a lot. That was a pretty neat experience just in terms of just going over and getting twenty minutes with John Warner or Roger Mudd and Charlie McDowell. It was a pretty neat experience. Warren: Well, I'm glad to know that exists. Donaldson: It does. de Maria's got it. You got to pin him down on that. Warren: I'm going to take a look at that. Donaldson: Brian's probably got it, too. Warren: Well, I need more on Mock Convention and that will be a nice- Donaldson: There's also, I think that the news office put together, a summary of the major news stories from '92. There's a "McNeil-Lehrer" piece. I mean, that was phenomenal, and that was all Roger Mudd's doing, and that was about a twelve- or thirteen-minute piece, which if you can imagine that. That was Roger Mudd's campaign contribution through the century, I think. It was a full "McNeil-Lehrer" piece on it, and then CBS had a story on it and then there were a few others on there, too. But it was pretty amazing, really. Brian's got that, I know. Warren: And "McNeil-Lehrer" did it again this year. Donaldson: Yeah, they did. 20 Warren: In '96 they did a long piece. Donaldson: They did. Warren: You couldn't ask for a more wonderful publicity for the school. Donaldson: No, you can't buy coverage like that. No, that's true. Warren: To me, it's remarkable what you guys pulled together. Donaldson: Well, it's a real collective effort. The university puts tremendous support behind the convention and they are very flexible and accommodating in terms of scheduling and certainly keeping an eye on the people that are involved and making sure that they're not doomed academically. The alumni, too, the amount of financial and connection support is really impressive. It's a great event and it pulls the university together in a way not too many school-sponsored events do, because you get the law school tied in, you get the faculty involved and the students, and it's a shame it's over so quick in a lot of ways because it takes a long time in preparing for it, not unlike a lot of things. Warren: How do you keep your nose above water academically? Donaldson: It was a struggle. Warren: Do you get any academic credit for what you do? Donaldson: No, although from what I understand, the last group did get some . independent study credit for it, not a lot. Warren: I would think so. Donaldson: Well, I got some academic credit with Professor de Maria for putting the videos together, and he was quite helpful in that regard. It was a great learning experience, too. I wasn't totally screwing around. I did learn a lot about filmmaking and that kind of thing. The fact that the university will let a bunch of nineteen to twenty-one-year-olds run an organization with a $250,000 budget, it is unbelievable. I mean, the trust that the university places on you is daunting almost. It's difficult to find too many out-of-college jobs that you would get that much or kind of 21 responsibility. It's something that you walk away feeling a lot stronger about W&L because of. That doesn't happen at many other places. I went to Virginia to law school and was involved in a few things there and to get twenty-five dollars for paper clips, you've got to go through forty-eight channels and appeal and get everybody to sign off on there. Gosh, there were days when we spent $30,000 and there was no university true supervision. I mean, obviously we were accountable for it all, but that's pretty unusual these days. Warren: It's pretty unusual anytime anywhere. Donaldson: Right. Warren: Well, this whole idea of what makes Washington and Lee different is the theme I'm trying to pursue, and obviously Mock Convention is one of the major manifestations of it, but the whole idea of the Honor System and how there's student self-government. What did that mean to you as a student and what has it meant to you now that you're not a student anymore? Donaldson: Well, I think the freedom that that allows you and the trust that the university and the community places on you, that is really the defining part of the W&L experience for me. That freedom to run an organization like Mock Convention really without too much of a safety net below you, and I say that in the positive sense, it builds up your confidence in a way that I think would be almost impossible anyplace else without having to deal with somebody constantly looking over your shoulder. At a young age it gave me the confidence to handle three significant life experiences. Having seen it, having gone to another school, which was also a great place to be, but very different, I just appreciated it so much more. The freedom and the trust that you have at W&L, it makes it such a more pleasant place to be, and, overall, I think you come away with a stronger experience because of that. I'm kind of rambling. 22 Warren: Let's talk about the Honor System. Do you remember how you first learned about it? Donaldson: Yeah, I think the first time that I really got into the nuts and bolts of it was at the honor orientation, which, of course, is mandatory for freshmen right after you enroll. And that's pretty heady stuff when you're eighteen. You go into the Lee Chapel and you've got somebody who's either a senior or a law student that puts across the responsibility that comes with the freedom that you have under the Honor System. You're in the Lee Chapel and everybody-it's, I wouldn't say nerve- wracking, but the seriousness of it certainly gets across. Then you kind of break down into groups and you talk about what is and what is not an honor violation. You think about how that's going to affect your life at W&L and about you need not necessarily to change, but just to be aware of it on a constant basis. What might have been okay in high school, not in terms of cheating, but you just need to be always aware that your actions have consequences that you just need to conscience of. I'm trying to remember. I don't know that there were any honor trials my freshmen year. I think there was one, and that's kind of where the rubber meets the road in the Honor System. When you're there for a public honor trial, that's just- "unusual" is a mild way of describing it in terms of the university putting all the cards in the students' hands in evaluating actions of other students. Honor trials are pretty scary. Have you been? No? You definitely walk away from those thinking long and hard about honor and what it is and how it applies to your daily life. Warren: Tell me about that. Tell me about the experience of going to the trial. Donaldson: Well, these were people that I knew. They weren't, I wouldn't say, good friends, but they were people that I knew socially, I had had classes with them. It's pretty scary to sit there and have all those issues played out and knowing in the 23 back of your mind that there's a good chance that they're not going to be at W&L next week because of it. The first one that I went to they were actually exonerated in the end, and the thing to remember is the only reason is, the only reason-and I can't remember how the mechanics of it worked, but I know in their case they had actually been found, I don't remember what the term of choice is, guilty or convicted by the Executive Committee. So the reason that they were there is because they were basically expelled by the Executive Committee and were rolling the dice with an open trial. If they had just left following their being found guilty by the E. C. it wouldn't have been on the transcript. By taking it to an honor trial you are setting yourself up, potentially, at least, to have a tremendous stigma on your record and resume in life. It's uncomfortable to sit and watch that, knowing that in the back of your mind, but at the same time you realize that's the price for having all the freedom that you do at W&L. It's impossible to walk away from there without talking to other people about it and thinking about just how you conduct your life. It's something that has stuck with me down the road. I went to one-there was an honor trial my last year there where they were found guilty, and that was one of the strangest experiences I've ever been in in my entire life. When the "guilty" verdict came down, I mean, Lee Chapel was absolutely dead silent and nobody really knew what to do. Do you walk out? Do you let them walk out? Eventually people kind of got up and milled around, but it was very, very strange. I wouldn't want to go through that process, that's for sure. Warren: What happened the first time when the person was exonerated? Donaldson: Well, that was actually-that was in the law school moot courtroom, and I think that was different because I think the verdict came back pretty quick, and so people didn't have time to go, because a lot of people had kind of come in and out for those, and a lot of people did not have time to get up and back to the law 24 school before the verdict was read. So there weren't a lot of people, it was mostly these people's friends, and it was kind of a cheering kind of congratulatory atmosphere. The other trial was in the Chapel, and it was jam packed, and I think that there was an announcement that the verdict had been reached and so people were able to get down there pretty quick, and so the Chapel was just about packed, as I recall. You could hear a pin drop after that verdict was read. Warren: What is it about Lee Chapel? You're implying both when you went for the honor explanation, but there is something loaded about Lee Chapel. Donaldson: Sure. No doubt about that. When you've got the recumbent statue of General Lee, you've got the portraits of Lee and Washington. The chapel really is the center of W&L. There's so much history tied up there. You look down and you see the pew where General Lee went to services while he was there. You look around and you see the plaques about alumni who have accomplished and done great things throughout there. It's also a very stark place, and the starkness is part of its attraction, but also it has a very, I don't know what the real term would be, but it's got a very solemn feel to it. And to have an honor trial there, I mean, it's the appropriate place for that, and I think it adds to the gravity of the proceedings to have it in the chapel. It's sort of a, to use a bad term, but kind of a temple of the Honor System, and to have it there it's a much, much different experience than if you have it in the moot courtroom. A courtroom has this kind of-well, it feels like a courtroom, and that's what its intention is. The chapel just kind of takes it up a level, I think, in some ways. Warren: I'm sure it does. Donaldson: That was a really, really strange experience hearing a "guilty" verdict read there. It was spring term, I think, my senior year, and so you're on your way 25 out and it's a good-it's not a good, but it certainly makes you reconsider or think about the Honor System and its place and your role within it. Warren: It's an experience I hope I get to see for history's sake, but I hope it doesn't happen, at the same time. Donaldson: No, no, you're right. Warren: It's not something you wish for to happen. Donaldson: Not at all. Not at all. I mean, the Honor System at W&L works, I think, well because it's a small university, people generally know each other pretty well. It's also works because it's in a small town where you don't have as much outside influence and possible intrusion. An Honor System would not work as well at NYU as it does in Lexington. There are just too many external forces that would bear down. Even in Charlottesville, which is a much bigger place, the Honor System is very different there. It's not as much a part of your kind of "walking around" life as it is at W&L. The Honor System at Virginia-and obviously I was a grad student, so it's a little bit different than I think it is for undergraduates, but it, for us, came into play just around exam time, which meant there weren't proctors and you weren't allowed to discuss the exam, which is great. It gives you a lot of flexibility in that regard, but it's not the same omnipresent part of life that the Honor System is at W&L. Warren: So you're saying at UVA it has to do with exams, whereas at W&L it has to do with life? Donaldson: That's not exactly true. Again, because I was a grad student, I wasn't involved in too much of it. There aren't a lot of grad students that get put before an honor committee hearing because of cheating-law school exams are hard to cheat on in the best of circumstances-or for stealing or for lying. I don't know even if the lying really applies as much at Virginia. Although I think the president at UVA 26 was expelled for an honor violation while I was there. But because W&L is smaller and because you kind of know people, it's a topic of conversation more often. There's a lot of trust. You're just constantly reminded. You go in the library and there's no gate blocking your entrance. That's completely different than most major university libraries and so you think about it a lot more. You think about what you're doing and about how that applies in the context of the Honor System. Warren: Another thing that I think you were there for, and I think you were there for the bulk of it, for Fraternity Renaissance. Donaldson: Yeah. Warren: You're the first person I've talked to who lived through Fraternity Renaissance. Tell me about that. Donaldson: Yeah, I started in '88 and pledged '88-'89, and then moved into the fraternity house in '89. I was a Beta. I was the-let me think just a second. Yeah, I was the last class to live in the house before reconstruction. I think that began in '90-'91, and then we were back in the house for my senior year in '91-'92. Just totally different. Those houses were-it's hard to believe I lived in a structure like that. At the time it didn't seem so bad, but all those houses were really five years from collapse. They could not have continued much longer along that course. Warren: What course? Donaldson: Of reckless disregard for them. We would try to clean up for Alumni Weekend and for Parents Weekend and that sort of thing, but you just can't get past the inherent structural damage and kind of polish up a dung heap. I mean, they were that far gone. It's difficult to pinpoint the source of the problem, but the general conditions fostered kind of a pretty reckless atmosphere in terms of window-breaking was pretty common, people just didn't have any respect for the house, for the structure itself. And that changed pretty dramatically. I think those days-I was glad to have experienced those. I don't know, five years into it, how the 27 process has gone, I don't know what the reviews are, but I think, overall, it was time for that change. The fraternities sacrificed a lot of their autonomy by signing over the deeds to the houses, but, frankly, 90 percent of the fraternities couldn't have afforded that kind of rebuilding of the house, and so I think it was an equitable trade in the long run, and I think it's unprecedented that a university puts that much financial capital and resources and effort behind a fraternity system. There was a lot of talk at the time about, "You know, this is just an effort by the hill to come down and take charge and then this is going to be the German-speaking house at one point and next door is going to be the French house or whatever." But I think W&L's the kind of place that there aren't too many subterfuges that way to usurp power. The commitment that the university has put behind it is really unbelievable. Other schools, "antagonistic" is a euphemism for the relationship between the colleges and the fraternities. W&L is embracing them and saying, "This is an important part of our history and will continue to be," and that's great. Warren: So the houses were in ill repair. You moved out. What did you do the year- Donaldson: Yeah, that year was pretty terrible. Warren: What was it like? I've seen some pictures, but describe it for me. Donaldson: They did them all in phases and so we were, I think, the second round of houses. Well, the first was SAE, and I think they did PiKA, then they did Red Square next. So we were out that whole stretch. Warren: All of Red Square was done? Donaldson: I think simultaneous. I think they did Phi Kap and Sigma Nu and Beta, Phi Delt and PiKA all at the same time. Then they did the second wave after that, the third wave, I guess, technically. But it was tough. The houses were the center of fraternity life, and when you take that away and you've got people living all over 28 town, it was a difficult year socially for all the fraternities. Some of the more cohesive fraternities had a less hard time. Warren: How? How did they solve it? Donaldson: They rented out different warehouses in town and made those kind of the regular band places and party places. But when you don't eat together all the time and you don't have a place to come down to after classes, it's hard. It puts a lot of pressure on the social events to be the unifying forces within the fraternity. So that year was pretty tough. There were things kind of spread all over the place. You didn't have Red Square parties, you had a lot more country parties, there was a lot more driving as a result. People were having to drive out of town, with the incumbent risks that that brings. Then that was for all of junior year, and I came back my senior year and the houses were done, and it was tremendous change to walk into what really had been a rubbish heap to this sparkling new house with a housemother, of all things. I mean, that was a dramatic change from what we were used to. It made fraternity life a lot more expensive, and for that reason I think that's a negative, because the houses were nicer, the rent's gone up, the food has gone up in price, as well, from what I understand, dues went up to pay for the new houses. So I hope that doesn't exclude people too much from joining fraternities. I know I had a battle with my old man to try to get him to pay my dues, and I don't know what they are now, but he probably wouldn't pay them if they were much higher than they were five years ago. It was a big change. I mean, our housemother came in and said no sleepovers, no hats at dinner. The fraternities, prior to that, were the center of male life. There were no real restrictions other than those imposed by the fraternity, and to have somebody come in and start making rules, it took a little bit of adjustment. I think eventually there was a mutual consensus put together about-our 29 housemother at least kind of backed off some of her strident rules and we kind of cleaned up our act a little bit and met in the middle, and for that it's worked out. It seemed to work out pretty well at the time. Warren: Are there university rules or are they the housemothers' rules? Who set up the rules? Donaldson: Well, I think they're both. There were certainly heightened restrictions on what you can and can't do in the fraternity house itself, from the university. They sunk a lot of money into it and I think they have every right to protect their investment. But the housemother brought sort of social rules that we weren't used to, and took a little bit of getting used to. Warren: What kinds of things? Donaldson: No girl sleepovers, no hats at the dinner table. I can't remember. Those were two that seemed to bring up a lot of flak, I guess. There was a lot of resistance to those. I'm trying to think what other kind of restrictions. I think it was just the presence of an authority figure in the house that threw people off, because they were just kind of bastions of doing your own thing. I mean, whatever you want to do, within reason, you could, and then you had this older woman who you didn't know, for one thing. You certainly had not entered fraternity life with this sort of a figure around, and then these rules were being made, and you had a lot more restrictions than you were used to. Warren: I'm just real curious. Could the housemother be the one to say no sleepovers, or is that the university saying no sleepovers? Donaldson: No, that was the housemother. Warren: Who hired the housemother? Did you hire her? Donaldson: The housemother was hired by the housing board or housing corporation and I think that's true with most of them. I think that perhaps the university solicited a whole bunch of housemothers at one time. I don't know, they 30 may have put an advertisement in somewhere, and then the housing corporation that governs the fraternity would interview them and ultimately made the decision and wrote the checks. Warren: That must have been a real battle royal. Donaldson: Yeah, it was. W&L is not a very-I mean, people generally have good manners, but it's still sort of unrepentant, and I don't know whether it is as much now, but it was five years ago in terms of sort of a male-it was male-dominated for so long. It was still evolving when I left there, and I think there were a lot of housemothers who had come from places that weren't used to having housemothers and were not prepared for the resistance that they encountered, and as a consequence, a lot of them did not stay very long. Warren: The housemothers didn't? Donaldson: Yes. Warren: That's no surprise. Can we go a few more minutes? Donaldson: Sure, that's fine. Warren: I want to pop in another tape.