Donaldson interview [Begin Tape 2, Side 1] Warren: This is Mame Warren. It's tape two with John Donaldson, October 29th, 1996 in Atlanta, Georgia. As we've mentioned back at the beginning, you were in the first class who came who knew you were going to be coed? Donaldson: Well, no, I was in the first class where all four classes were coed. The prior year to my entry, there was a class of all men. Warren: Okay. So you never experienced that, but these guys you talked to back in Baltimore had gone- 31 Donaldson: Right, a lot of them had. A lot of them had. It took really until the end of my four years there before I think most of the-maybe it didn't take quite that long, but it was an evolving process while I was there in terms of alumni getting used to coeducation. I think are were still alumni out there that graduated that are unhappy that there are women at W&L, which I find moronic, I mean, partly because I don't think that the experience has changed that dramatically. W&L is really not too terribly different, I don't think, than when they graduated. I think there's a crowd probably in the late seventies and early eighties that were close enough to the time of when coeducation occurred that carried some resentment. But I think, too, if you look on a very base level at a W&L diploma as sort of a stock certificate, the value of your diploma has increased quite a bit because of coeducation. Certainly not a way that I like to think about it a lot, but if you look at it really on its most basic terms, the value that the world puts on your diploma has increased a lot because of that. How you feel about it and how you feel about your experience is completely different, but from an external observation, because the scores have gone up, because the school has gotten much more publicity, it is more valuable. I think if you look at, say, Hampden-Sydney, that has remained all male, I mean, W&L and Hampden-Sydney were thought of not much differently in 1982. Now they're not even in the same ballpark. I think if you look at what's happened to them, you should be grateful that W&L went coed, I mean, not to disparage another place, but I think it's interesting contrast. Warren: And it's right there, isn't it? Donaldson: There aren't too many people, probably, who graduated in '82 would have thought that W&L admission SAT average would be what it is today. It has certainly raised the level of the academics, but I don't know that it's changed the 32 student body as much as people think that it has. I think it's still the same kind of W&L crowd as it's been since the place got going. My wife and I laugh all the time, we go to different alumni events, and it's sort of the same crowd throughout the generations. I mean, the names change, but the faces kind of, from the people that are still in school to older alums, it's remarkable how little difference it seems that there are between people. I don't know whether that's all good, but it's unusual. Warren: My observation is that there's definitely a W&L cookie-cutter, and it doesn't make any difference whether it's male or female either. Donaldson: Probably not, not now. Warren: The women seem to be the same cookie-cutter. Donaldson: It's funny though, I look at these guys and I'm like, all these guys could have been friends of mine five years ago, and my friends and I probably looked not much different than they did running around there. It's funny. But my wife was in my class, as well, and she was one of the first women-she was the first woman to be elected to one of the executive spots on the Executive Committee. She was the first secretary, and then I think she was secretary of the E. C. I still think that there was some resentment on campus that I think subsided by the time that we got out, but when we were in our middle years there, about women in positions of power that took the earlier classes of women really taking charge to try to eliminate that perception or that animosity towards them, and for that they deserve a lot of credit. Warren: You're telling me your wife went to W&L. How about road trips? Were they important to you? Donaldson: Road trips got to be less important. Well, Carol and I dated for most of our time there, but road trips, I think, really started to subside in importance when I was there, starting when I got there and more so towards the end. I think the social dynamics of that part of Virginia had changed pretty radically once W&L went coed. 33 I think a lot of the women's colleges shifted their focus towards UVA and Hampden-Sydney, probably UVA more than anyplace, I think. There were still plenty of W&L, Hollins, and Sweet Briar romances and that kind of thing, and we would go down to Hollins and Sweet Briar occasionally, but not on a regular weekly basis, or at least my friends didn't, and I don't think a lot of people did, or nearly as 'many as in years past. Certainly that. But W&L kind of became more insulated in some ways because of it, because there wasn't as much reason to travel, which I didn't miss too much. It's a more normal experience, I think. Warren: Let's end on a party note. Tell me about Fancy Dress in your time. Donaldson: Well, let's see, I'm trying to reconstruct. What about Fancy Dress is interesting that I can tell you? Fancy Dress is still, I think, one of the best parties, as an event, better than anything I've been to on a consistent basis. It's a party that I think used to have a national reputation and it certainly still does in the Southeast. The amount of effort that people put into getting ready for it and the decorations and the band and the hype and whole thing is pretty neat, because it happens in such a dead time of the year, it's early March, I think. It gives you a little hope to make it through the Virginia winter. I think my favorite Fancy Dress story was walking around in there, and I forget which one it was, it might have been the last one, but I looked around and I noticed that there was this guy who looked sort of out of place. I mean, he had sort of a long like trench coat on and he was wearing like a funky hat, and I realized it was Michael Stipe, the man from REM who just happened to be up there. He had made a trip and he was walking around with all these little kids. I guess he's friends with Sally Mann up there. But there's Michael Stipe with this international band, who just happens to be cruising around Fancy Dress. I think there were a lot of interesting stories like that, that have come out of it. I can't think of too much else. 34 Warren: Was there a conflict between Mock Convention and Fancy Dress? Donaldson: We resolved it very early and amicably. We set the date, we explained our reasons for wanting to move it up and cross into what previously had been Fancy Dress weekend. John Flippen, who at the time was the chairman of Fancy Dress, was very accommodating and, I think, understood our predicament well. As a result, having it a little bit later- Warren: Having what? Donaldson: I'm sorry, having Fancy Dress a little bit later was not a bad thing for them, because the weather is better, there's more you can do outside. As I recall, it was a really nice weekend for Fancy Dress. It's kind of a packed month with Mock Convention at the very beginning and then Fancy Dress at the end. I mean, there's a lot going on in a short stretch. And I don't think it diminished the success of Fancy Dress at all. Warren: There was some feeling this year that it did. Donaldson: Is that right? Warren: And I wondered whether that had been the experience for you, too. Donaldson: I don't remember that. I don't remember that vividly, probably because John and his crew really did a spectacular job in putting that one together. Maybe, too, I wasn't paying that much attention, and I was just kind of glad to be at somebody else's party. It didn't seem to me at the time. You may find other people had different perceptions than I. Warren: Well, it seemed people were saying this was something new this year, that there was a sense this year that something had been different than it had before. Donaldson: Oh, really. What was the theme this year, do you know? Warren: Alice in Wonderland. What they said was that some of the same people were doing Fancy Dress who had been involved in Mock Convention, and they were just exhausted. 35 Donaldson: Oh, okay. Warren: So the decorations weren't up. Donaldson: I don't think we had too much crossover in that regard. I think they were pretty distinct organizations. I don't know what these people were thinking if they thought that they could do both within a month of each other. That's a prescription for disaster right there, I think. That's funny. Warren: I don't know, this was my first year, so I don't know what it was like in the past. Donaldson: Well, it's kind to be kind of a strange experience coming in as an observer. I'll be really excited to read your book about your observations there. Warren: It's not my observations, though, it's everybody else's. Donaldson: Sure. Warren: I'm pulling in everybody else's. Donaldson: Right. Warren: That's exactly why I'm doing what I doing. It's your story. I mean, this is Washington and Lee's story. Donaldson: It's a spectacular place, a defining experience probably in my life, for sure. Warren: Well, that's a pretty nice way to end. But there is anything more you would like to say? Donaldson: No. I'm trying to think if there's anything that we missed. This is something that I don't know whether you-I suspect you're probably not to going to talk about in this book, but about the whole Blake Kummer [phonetic] episode. You probably knew about that. About the woman that was killed, who was a freshman. Warren: I'd very much like to have you talk about that. Donaldson: I don't know whether I'm real comfortable about-I mean, I can talk about it, but I'd rather not you quote me on that in the book. Is that all right? 36 Warren: That's fine. That's fine. Donaldson: Just because I've got some friends that-I mean, I was a sophomore when that happened, but that was such a bizarre episode at W&L in terms of a cover-up, that it was hard to put boundaries on who was involved. This woman that was killed was a freshman at the beginning-well, winter of my freshmen year, and this huge investigation that went nowhere until the following year when one of this guy's fraternity brothers came forward and said that he knew who had done it. Apparently this guy had gone up to D.C. and replaced his windshield. Do you know much about this story at all? Warren: A little bit. Donaldson: Then had lived this really, really mysterious life for a year denying the whole-not denying it, but not talking about it to other people, I think talking generally about it in the normal conversation that you hear about this, and then the rumor has always been that a lot of other people knew about it and never said anything. I don't know enough about the situation to really speculate on that, but I've always thought it was one of the negative experiences that I had there, and that made me sort of just question a little bit about the Honor System and about how that could happen if people knew about it. Not to end on a negative note. Warren: No, but that's been said before. It's said by administrators. You're the first person who was a student that I've talked to in that time period, but there's some residuals about that floating around. Donaldson: It's something out of a movie. I mean, I think sometimes when I get in my creative moods, that would be a great screen story because it's so-I mean, it's stranger than fiction, really. You've got a homicide of some variety, you can define it as you want, and then just this crazy cover-up afterwards, and really without a lot of-I don't know that the residuals were that dramatic. There may be some 37 resentment, or I don't know what the description of it would be, but there wasn't much publicity about it afterwards. Warren: What did happen? Donaldson: What happened to- warren: Once it came out who had done it. Donaldson: I didn't really know Blake at all. I mean, I kind of knew who he was. He was two years ahead of me. People were just kind of flabbergasted about it at the time. They couldn't believe it. At least my friends, people were just absolutely shocked. I can't remember if there was a trial or maybe he pied-I don't remember exactly the details of it. But it was really, it was such a low point for W&L, I think, really, not through any collective experience, but just because of one individual and what can happen in that situation. That's about it, really, I think. I can't think of too many other- Warren: Well, this has been a really very broad interview. I thought we were going to talk about just Mock Convention, and it's been very good and broad and deep. Donaldson: Well, good. Good. Warren: I thank you. Donaldson: My pleasure. I'm glad I could help. I look forward to reading about W&L in the future. Warren: So do I. Donaldson: You probably have a few miles to go before- Warren: I do indeed. [End of interview] 38