PATRICIA LEGGETT July 15, 1996 — Mame Warren, interviewer Warren: This is Mame Warren. Today is the 15th of July, 1996. I'm in Lexington, Virginia, with Pat Leggett. I presume it's "Patricia?" Leggett: Yes. Warren: Why don't we just jump into what you were just talking about. Let's talk about Mr. Whitehead and the Reeves Collection. Leggett: All right. I will paraphrase by saying that I followed a husband, who was a trustee, and at that time, you served six years, and then renewed for another six. It was a twelve-year term. And I'm on my tenth year. I will be finished this October. So the combination is twenty-two years connected with this university, which gives a wonderful overview of just what's happened. One of the highlights, of course, was the acquisition of the Reeves Collection and watching the man who orchestrated it, Jim Whitehead, educate himself, expose this university to a segment of the population it probably wouldn't have been, through the porcelains. And then taking a trip to Taiwan, to take about three hundred-plus pieces, back to Taiwan, and, of course, this was export porcelain. So the Chinese really weren't that familiar with it. And, of course, Taiwan, at that time, the leadership came from the Chinese nobility that had to leave mainland China. So it was a fascinating group of people. Warren: When are we talking about? What year would this have been? 1 Leggett: I'm trying to think, Mame, when it was. I feel like it was about, oh, gosh, fourteen years ago. But you'll have to check that. Warren: Okay, we can look it up. Leggett: And time has a way of getting older. Warren: Yes, it does. Leggett: But we went with Jim and Celeste, and Bob Huntley and Evelyn. And I guess, totally, there would be maybe twelve or fourteen of us. Warren: What was the purpose of taking the porcelain to Taiwan? Was it in the exhibit? Leggett: The Taiwanese government requested us, as part of their cultural history, I guess. Warren: Was it an exhibit that was being taken? Leggett: We took an exhibit, and it was shown in Taiwan, and I think we lent it for three months. And people were lined up to see it. It was a very popular exhibit. We were guests of the government, I guess for maybe a week. They would meet us in the morning, about seven o'clock, and we said goodbye to them about eleven o'clock in the evening. It was a fabulous experience, watching that group of people trying to set up a new life for themselves in Taiwan, not being able to go back to mainland China. And the appreciation of the porcelain, the porcelain itself was a wonderful history lesson on our export-import of china at that time. We got to see things that the normal tourist wouldn't see. We ate Taiwanese food. It was just very interesting. We were not with the women very often, the Chinese women, but one night, they had a lovely dinner party for us. Of course, we were dined everywhere we went. The Chinese women were in attendance, and most of the women—all hosts spoke beautiful English, of course—and most of the women had been educated at Vassar, Smith, all our loveliest, finest education institutions for women. 2 I remember Mr. Ju, who was the artist-in-residence at the time, a Chinese painter. We all knew him, and he still is retired here in Lexington. He told us how to behave, and one thing we knew not to do was to praise anything that was Chinese, in any great extent, because they would try to give it to you. So at this lovely dinner party, the most stunning Chinese women were there, in their beautiful brocades and silks. Across from me was this lovely lady who had been educated at Vassar, and she had on the most beautiful jade necklace. Each heavy link was another color of jade, and then at the bottom was this gorgeous dragon. I tried not to look at it very often, but your eyes were just drawn to it, it was such a magnificent piece of jewelry. Finally, she said to me, "Would you like—?" She said, "You've been admiring my necklace." Well, there was dead silence at the table. And she said, "Would you like to see it?" And I must have had a guardian angel, because I said, "Oh, I would love to see it." I said, "If you would just let me wear it through dessert." And she did, and we had just such a good time with that. I'll never forget how generous she was, and how cordial and hospitable, and it just sort of bonded the dinner party. We had a wonderful time with that necklace, and it was absolutely exquisite. But I think of that very often when I think of that trip. But it was a wonderful experience, and, as I say, the Chinese were so happy to see this part of their history. It was wonderful. Warren: What a charming story. You're saying how lovely and educated these women were. I understand that you had a lovely education yourself. I'm going to jump back in time now. Now, you were a Randolph-Macon girl. Leggett: I went to Randolph-Macon. Warren: We're doing the Washington and Lee story here, but the Washington and Lee story would not be complete without talking about the women's colleges and their relationship to Washington and Lee. So tell me about what it was like to be a Randolph- Macon girl. 3 Leggett: Well, it was very nice. I graduated in 1953, and it was very lovely, because my husband was at Washington and Lee—my husband-to-be. Lynchburg was just over the mountain from Lexington, so that was very exciting. But I think when you look back, the state of Virginia is extremely fortunate. We have Randolph-Macon, Sweet Briar, Hollins, three very fine women's schools. I remember when Washington and Lee went co-ed, and my husband was on that board at the time, how careful Washington and Lee was to think of how their going co-ed would affect the enrollment of these three particular schools, because they were in the neighborhood. And they agreed that they would not take women applying from these schools as transfers, which I thought was a very thoughtful thing to do at that time. The board, that present board, during co-education, was very thorough, and they really studied this, and that's why I think it was so successful. I can remember, of course, it was controversial. And now that we're seeing the grandfathers, with their granddaughters who are accepted, they've turned 360 degrees, but at the time, there was a very strong feeling against coeducation. Understandably so, I think, from the old guard. But that Board of Trustees answered every negative letter with a personal note, and I thought that was a wonderful effort, and a very important effort. It sort of speaks to me of the Washington and Lee mystique, if you will, how people are aware of each other and thoughtful of each other, and how things work out, slowly sometimes, but in the long run, for the best. Warren: I did a little background research for our interview, and you're right in your husband's and your trusteeship. You span quite a few years. Gordon was on during the first vote for coeducation, when it was turned down. Maybe not the first vote, but the 1976 vote. Leggett: Well, they had considered it several times, and I don't know that it ever came to a vote the first consideration. I don't know. You may have to correct me on that. When it actually came to vote, he was part of that, and he was part of the study. And 4 then after it was voted on by the board, there were several years there that they were very alert about how women were being received. Just small incidents. Were there enough ladies' rooms for them? Was security strengthened, as perhaps it should be, with ladies on campus? And those little things. They really watched it very carefully. It wasn't something they voted and then left to the administration or the campus personnel. They were involved with it. Warren: Can you describe for me what it was like during that period, as the decision was coming closer? Surely there must have been a lot of drama going on around your house. Were there a lot of phone calls? Were people calling and trying to lobby your husband one way or the other? Leggett: I think there was some of that, no question. I know there was. But I think among the board, there was no great try to lobby individual members. In my time in serving on the board, there has never been that element. Certainly the wonderful part about the board is everybody speaks their mind. There's no hesitation. Sometimes you take a view that's not very popular, but we listen, and then you vote your conviction. Often, if it's very close, we agree that we make it unanimous, those people that are dissenting, and that's a lovely thing to be able to do. You speak your mind, but there's no pressure. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for. Warren: I wondered if there was pressure from alumni, rather than from fellow board members. Leggett: Oh, I think there was. No question. This was a hard thing to do. It was a big step, and I think John Wilson was a very courageous man to undertake it so early in his career. But maybe that's when it had to be done. But, oh gosh, after it was done, there was strong feeling, you know, from the old boys. This university was taking a major turn. But it didn't take very long for everybody to realize what a good move—and I'll tell you the thing that really convinced my husband was when the faculty said, "We're 5 not getting the students we want to teach." And that's the deciding factor, I think, for him. Warren: Were you here in Lexington that day? Leggett: I was. Warren: Can you take me back there? Leggett: No, I really can't very well. I think you'd probably have to talk to a board member that was. I remember the press was here. I guess that there was so much going on before it, as far as discussion. My husband was so convinced it was the right thing to do, that there was no persuasion for him. He knew that that should be. Of course, we had three daughters, and they certainly talked to him long and hard. [Laughter] Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, Gordon's had a wonderful opportunity of having his three daughters tell him what books to read, what movies to see. They have a wonderful rapport. There's never been a feeling of women being second-rate in his mind. Maybe second-rate is a poor choice. He feels that women have the capability of doing whatever they want to do, and should have the opportunity, and we brought our girls up that way. He had no sisters, so it was a wonderful growing experience for him. Warren: And were your daughters strong lobbyists on this issue? How old were they at that time? Leggett: They were too young for that, and we sort of had some family rules, and have, growing up, that we try to keep things within the family. I know people did ask our oldest daughter how she felt, and she kept saying she knew that her father was going to make the right decision. Warren: A diplomat. Leggett: She is. Still is, will always be. Warren: It just seems like that must have been a time of such high drama and emotion. 6 Leggett: It was. But, you know, I don't think there was any feeling of upsetness, during that time. I think it was a strong move, and it was done with great resolution, and there was no wavering. That was the key to the success, I think. Warren: I've had the privilege of talking to quite a few people who were involved with it, and— Leggett: Do they feel that way? Warren: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I've gotten real chills up and down my spine from listening to some people. What year was it that you came on the board? Leggett: Well, let's see. I go off in '96, so it was '86. Warren: I understand that you have a lot of expertise in looking at the physical plant of the campus, so did you get involved in whatever changes were happening? Leggett: Oh, it was wonderful. Mame, my first job was to be the board liaison to the Fraternity Renaissance. I spent my first summer—and I was appointed to this, I think, basically because I lived in Lynchburg and I could come over that mountain with ease. And being a woman, I think, was probably another reason. I think at that time there were three women on the board. There were. Buddy Atkins and I did an inspection of the existing conditions of the fraternity houses, and I was absolutely appalled. I had known what they were like, because I dated at these fraternity houses when I was in college. But as a mother, you look at it a little differently, having raised children, and it was an appalling situation. I remember we got to one house, and the boys had left for the summer, and just swept everything that was left over into the front hall, and I know there was a dead animal under all that. So, going through those houses, if we hadn't renovated the fraternity houses, we would have had to have built another dormitory and another dining hall. So, in a way, it was a given. We had to do them. It was an expensive undertaking, as you know. I think the price tag was about $13 million. But they were in such deplorable shape. I 7 mean, windows knocked out. So it was an amazing operation. But that was my first taste of being on the board at Washington and Lee. Warren: That must have been quite a taste. Leggett: I hope I convinced some board members of the necessity, that we didn't have a choice. Warren: So what did you do? Leggett: We really worked with the architect. Oh, just what we do. We tried to control cost wherever we could, we talked to the fraternity members about how they had to maintain it. We had a set of rules that we put together on just how it would work, that Washington and Lee would own the houses, and just what the responsibilities of the fraternities were, of their national would be, and the stipulation they had to have housemothers, which was a real plus, because there was some control over that. I remember one of the ladies that was a housemother was deaf, and I thought how marvelous that was, you know, that she could just unplug on the weekend. [Laughter] And there was a lovely sort of a fraternity among the housemothers. You know, that's a tough life, I would think. But, you know, some just had a wonderful time with it. They had nice apartments, which we were sure were nice, working with the architect. It was a good experience, learning about how one builds the best fraternity house, practically, as economically, and that would stand abuse, with all those boys, running up and down steps, and kicking doors, you know, and that sort of thing. Warren: You alluded to that you knew what the fraternity houses were like back in the fifties. When you came into them in the eighties, were you seeing the same conditions you saw back then? Leggett: Well, I saw them with a housemother. In the 1950s, early fifties, when I was in college, they were very different, because they had housemothers. Warren: Can you describe what they were like then for me? 8 Leggett: Well, you had dinner, and the housemother sat there at the end of the table, and there were some controls. And when I was at Randolph-Macon, we were not allowed to drink, so you didn't drink. There was plenty of drinking, but we didn't drink. I never went up on the second floor, of course. I saw the housemother being present at weekend parties. I'm sure they were rowdy, you know, but I didn't date boys that were great party boys. But there were those, certainly. And there was drinking; there was drunkenness. But they hadn't gotten out of hand. When there was nobody there to say, "You can't do that," or "You will sit down and put a napkin on your lap," and so forth, I think they got out of hand. Warren: So the physical environment had changed radically when you came in? Leggett: Yes, yes. No question. Warren: Can you give me an example of going into one of the houses, and what you saw? Leggett: Well, you know, there were some windows broken all year, and the winter winds would come in. There was furniture broken. The smell of just mustiness. They weren't as clean as they should be. Bathroom fixtures were broken. They were in great disrepair. And it wasn't the most favorite thing I've done as a board member. It was an educational one. But it's been great fun working. I used to serve on the student affairs, and that was wonderful. I've served on the academic affairs, and have been aware of what this faculty does, and the wonderful ratio between students and faculty. And then I got to capital projects, and, eventually, you're made a chairman of that. You know, after you've been on the board long enough, they make you a chairman. I've seen buildings go up, which has been extremely exciting, and I've been very involved with the new Science Center. I had to learn what chillers were, and be able to explain to the board why we needed to buy another chiller, when that was sort of above the budget. I learned a lot. 9 Warren: It sounds like going back to school all over again. Leggett: The lovely thing about being on the board at Washington and Lee, you're worked as a trustee, and that's as it should be. They do work you, and you stay involved. I've just been up to Skylark with an executive meeting, working on the five- year plan, and it's a remarkable university. Tremendous, talented people here. Warren: Tell me about the—is it called the Student Activities Committee? Leggett: It's Campus Life. Warren: Campus Life Committee. Leggett: And that's the only committee you really have any direct contact with students. Warren: Tell me about that. I've never talked to anybody who was involved with that. Leggett: In Campus Life? Warren: I didn't know they were involved. Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, of course, Dave Howison is there, being the dean of students. The president of the student government reports. You hear about honor violations, you hear about anything that involves student life. I'm not on that committee now, but sorority housing is something that's come to the forefront. Sororities want housing. Problems of drinking—how can we combat those? That would be an issue that might come up. They report on Fancy Dress, any of the things that students involve. And, of course, they run their Honor System, and that's very impressive to me. You hear about how they're handling that. Warren: What would a report on the Honor System entail? How would that be presented? Leggett: They would tell you— Warren: Who is "they"? Who would come and talk? 10 Leggett: The president of the student government reports this, and he would talk about what violations there have been and how they were handled, and if students withdrew or were dismissed, which is important you know this. Warren: And is there drama involved with that? Leggett: No, because they handle it totally. And there are some cases, you know, that happen in Lexington, like the time the girl was raped by the VMI cadet. That happened several years ago. That made the papers. Of course, no school or university is insulated from things that happen like that, whether a child is killed in an automobile wreck, or you know—when you have that many young people on a campus, things come up. Warren: Yes, they sure do. I've never been to a board meeting. Do you have a parade of people come through and give you reports? Leggett: What you do is, we have committee meetings. Capital Projects is a committee, Campus Life is a committee, Budget and Audit, Investment, Academic Affairs is a committee, and all of us meet as committees. And then at the full board meeting, the chairman of that committee reports, because none of us are able to go to all of them, you see. So then we get an overview, and then whatever action items come up, we vote on. The dean of the law school will give his report, and the dean of admissions, so we get a picture of what's going on. Warren: I know they sure keep you busy, because I was hoping to talk to you last time you were here for a board meeting, and they wouldn't let me get anywhere close to you. Leggett: No way. No, that time was taken. The response of the board, and the attendance—very few people miss. It's amazing to me, these busy, busy men. They're here. And all of us have terrible sinking spells when we go off, just terrible sinking spells. Warren: Tell me what you mean by that. Leggett: Well, you just hate to leave these people. It's just a wonderful family of people, and you get very close to them. There's just a camaraderie, no question. I remember 11 asking one of the board members, I said, "What would you all think if I wore slacks to one of these meetings? No woman has done it yet." And he said, "Oh, please don't do that." I said, "Okay. I won't do it." But that's wonderful, I thought. And they're very supportive, and they know what's happened to your life. When I became president of the Garden Club of Virginia, they wrote me notes to tell me how happy they were. They weren't from Virginia. I don't know how they found out all about this. But they're very supportive. Warren: It is. The whole community is wonderful. Leggett: It's remarkable. My father was in the Army, so we traveled around a lot, and I feel that same way about Lynchburg. It's hard to have a private life, and I'm sure that's the case in Lexington, too. But it's awfully nice to have people care. Warren: Yes, everybody knows, and especially— Leggett: Everybody knows. Warren: Especially being the "new person." I found it very intimidating the first few weeks I was here, because everybody knew who I was, and here I was trying to learn all these names. Finally, Frank [Parsons] said, "Mame, it's okay. You don't have to learn everybody's name the first week." "Okay, all right." It's like, everybody was saying, "Hi, Mame," and I'm going, "Oh, who's that? Do I know that person?" But it is, it's a wonderfully friendly place. Tell me about the campus itself. Can you remember the first time you ever walked on this campus and what your impression was? Leggett: As a young person? Warren: Yes. Leggett: Well, I don't know how anybody cannot be struck by that row of columns on that beautiful hill of green grass. Even though probably at eighteen, nineteen, that's not something you look for or maybe is in your vocabulary of appreciation, but I was struck by it. And Lee Chapel. I remember visiting Lee Chapel with my grandmother, who 12 came from Virginia stock, lived in Richmond. She brought me down here as a child, at eight years, to go through Lee Chapel, because it was that important to her. I have that background. And I think the size. I remember thinking what a wonderful size Washington and Lee was. Then I had fun dating here, too. That's a very happy memory. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: And Fancy Dress. We used to have costumes, and I can remember, that was the weekend you had to have a date, at Fancy Dress. Everybody worked hard. Even if you didn't like the boy very much, you certainly flattered and worked to get an invitation. And they would get your measurements—we all lied about our measurements, of course—and send those to a costumer, I guess, who provided the costumes, in New York City. And when you got here for Fancy Dress—I guess it was Friday afternoon—your date brought you your costume. Well, if you weren't dating somebody in student government, or, you know, who had a real important job, your costume wasn't much. But it was great fun to put on. Of course, they didn't fit. The measurements were all wrong, which was partly your fault. But at night, it didn't matter, and they went to great lengths to decorate the gym so it didn't look like a gym, and it didn't. We all came out in costume, and it was wonderful fun. They don't do costumes now, I believe, but there's been talk about getting back to it. Warren: I hope so. I think we should do it for 1999, don't you? Leggett: Oh, it would be a great idea. Warren: I think that that should be the goal for Fancy Dress. Leggett: Oh, it would be a great idea, exactly. Warren: You take it on. It'll happen if you take it on. Leggett: Thank you, my dear. Thank you, my dear. Well, I'm delighted that renovation of the chapel is going to be a keystone to that celebration, too, which is overdue. Warren: Let's stay with Fancy Dress. Tell me about Fancy Dress. I mean, take me in to Fancy Dress. 13 Leggett: Well, you would go in, of course, and see—I'm trying to think of what the theme was. I want to say—I can't remember, but you can find all that out. Well, it was King Arthur's court. They were all in these dresses, and you would walk in, and, I mean, they had done staging and painting. They worked like dogs. I don't know how they studied. Maybe study just was not thought of for the month before Fancy Dress. But a real production, and a top-name band, you see, had to be. And it was just a magical evening. You'd walk into the setting, and you were a member of King Arthur's court. I don't know, in those days—I've often asked our daughters about this—we danced with everybody. You don't do that anymore, for some reason. But we went as a group. We had a wonderful group of friends, and we'd all dance with each other, and we had a wonderful time. There was just something romantic. Fancy Dress just was romantic. It was the weekend on the southern college scene, if you will. Did you ever go? Were you here? You weren't in the area, were you? Warren: No, no. I went to school in the Midwest. I went this year for my first Fancy Dress, and I had a wonderful time, but I wished I'd been wearing a costume. Leggett: Oh, exactly. A costume ball was what it was. And I think it's probably the only time I went to a costume ball, was the few Fancy Dresses that I went to when I was in college. Warren: How did you get over here? Leggett: How did we get over here? Let's see. From Randolph-Macon—we couldn't have cars as freshmen, but you could have cars after a freshman. I didn't have a car at college, but I guess I came with friends. I don't even remember getting here, it was just the getting here. And we stayed at boardinghouses, you know. Warren: What kind of boardinghouses? 14 Leggett: Well, just whoever would take you in. All these little houses used to take in people. Faculty was good about taking people in. But see, we had to be in at a certain time if you went to Randolph-Macon. Warren: So even when you were in Lexington, you were following Randolph-Macon rules? Leggett: Right. Warren: Who was making sure of that? Leggett: Well, you were on your honor. Warren: So you had an Honor System, too? Leggett: Indeed we did. And drinking was a part of the Honor System, which should or should not have been the case. I have mixed emotions about that. But it was a magical night, and fun, and what it should be at college. Warren: How about sporting events? Would you come over for sporting events? Leggett: Well, I've always loved lacrosse. We come over for lacrosse games. As a young person—well, they were on the weekend, and if you were up here, you went to the sporting events, of course. Warren: How did you meet your husband? Leggett: I met my husband—he went to Camp Virginia, which is right here at Rockbridge Baths, and I went to the Camp Okahawas [phonetic]. They were fourteen miles apart. At camp, we had a mixer one night a month, and the boys would come to us, and the next month, we'd go to them, and that's where I met him. We had a dance and play. Warren: So this is even before Washington and Lee? Leggett: Fourteen years old. Warren: Oh, so you didn't meet while you were at Washington and Lee? 15 Leggett: That's right, and when we got to college, we were dating other people. He dated a lot of people; I dated a lot of people. But I did come to Fancy Dress with him. That was good. Warren: So what was it like? Did you have a sense of how seriously, or unseriously, they took being Washington and Lee students? Leggett: How serious do you take being a college student? I don't know. Warren: Well, did they present themselves as Washington and Lee men? Was that a big deal, or were they just college students? Leggett: Well, I think you categorize, don't you? VMI cadet. If you dated VMI cadets, that was a whole other thing. I liked dating at Washington and Lee. I also dated at the Naval Academy. I dated at Duke. Washington and Lee was very different from Duke. First of all, it was easier to get to. It was not as big, which appealed to me. You got to know the boys better. If you wanted a blind date, you could find out in a hurry what they were like. Warren: Tell me what you mean by that. Leggett: Well, if you had a blind date, you knew somebody that was over here, you know, and you could say, somebody you—a brother or cousin—and you could say, "Tell me about Joe Blow. What's he like?" You know, before you really committed. It was easier to do that here than it would be at Duke, because Duke wasn't a small community. When you came over here, you knew people, you know. Maybe you do that at other great big schools. I didn't see that as much at UVA, but you could come across this campus and see people you knew, more often than not. Warren: See students you knew? Leggett: Yes. Warren: Did you get to know any faculty? Leggett: Yes, I did. I got to know faculty that were some of my husband's favorites. Warren: Can you remember who they were? 16 Leggett: I remember Steve Stevephenson, who would have us to supper. He'd have his students to supper. Warren: And you'd be invited along? Leggett: Yes. Warren: That's interesting. I hadn't heard that before. Leggett: I think the faculty is very accessible to these students, not just—not in-class time—they were available. And relationships grow. That's one thing I've really known about this school. I see that, as a board member. And if you go with a faculty member anywhere across campus, and very often I will, he stops and talks to the students, or she stops and talks to the students. It's wonderful. They're very lucky. I think that's exceptional here, truly. When I bring students, you know, I—when you're on the board, students do ask you to intervene for them if they are seeking admission. If they don't have a chance, I don't do that. I ask them what their board scores are and what their grades were in high school. If they don't have a chance, I discourage it right away. Or I will call the admissions office and ask them what kind of a chance, if they're coming early decision. And if they don't have a good chance, I tell them, "Start looking around to other schools," because I don't want them to have their heart set. But one of the selling points, of course, it's a very popular place to get in. You don't need to sell it. But when students come to me, and that's an—I enjoy doing that for the university. I enjoy interviewing students and writing letters for them. I will not write a letter for a student I don't know. If they're interested in Washington and Lee, and they tell me their junior year, I say, "Okay. Let's meet a couple of times." And I ask. I say, "I'm going to ask about you. I'm going to call your high school counselor." Therefore, for a good student, I can work hard to get them in. Warren: That must be exciting, to play a role like that. 17 Leggett: It is fun. It is fun. It's also hard if they don't get in. It's very hard. But I think you've got to be very open and fair, and they appreciate it. I would. I had a wonderful young girl that I would have taken in a minute, who went early decision. I said, "You haven't got a chance to get in early decision," because I'd called up here. And I said, "I'm not sure you have a chance of getting in at all. But I want you to know that, and if it was up to me, I'd take you tomorrow." She did not get in, but she knew it. Her sister has come and gotten in. She's a precious girl, and has done very well where she went, but it's not a school that Washington and Lee was academically. So it was a happy decision, but it's tough in the choosing. It's very tough. Warren: So you've seen Washington and Lee change academically? Leggett: Oh, no question. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, you know the changes, since they went coeducational. Warren: Well, you tell me. Leggett: Well, as I've just told you, men that have been here said they wouldn't have a chance to get in here now. I'm not sure that's true, but it's much more difficult. They're taking the top student. You know, this is no safety school. It used to be a safety school. By that I mean the normal child would put it on their list, and if they were a "C" student, or "C+" student, they could probably get in, the boys. Not anymore. Warren: What do you think the attraction is to a student from Iowa, who isn't an alumni student? Leggett: That's interesting. Talking to students—occasionally we will have a meal with them. They'll have lunch with us. And I will ask this, particularly the minority student. Minority students usually receive financial aid. If I was a minority student, and I had a wonderful talk with this girl—"woman," excuse me. I shouldn't call them "girls"; they're women. She said, "You know, Ms. Leggett, I'm a double minority." And I said, "I've never heard that before." Of course, she was black and a female. And I said, "That's so 18 interesting." Unfortunately, this woman has a chip on her shoulder, and I was sorry to see that. She was being very critical of a lot of policy, and I think that was unfortunate. Therefore, Washington and Lee was not the experience that I'd hope she'd have. But nonetheless, a minority student would not come to Lexington. Why would you come? It's not a metropolitan area that they could really enjoy. There are very few minorities here. And I'm sorry; I'd like to see that increase. And I think good financial aid, increasing financial aid, will get more. Time's changing, too. Ten years ago, it was very tough to get a minority student. And if I was black, I wouldn't want to come to Lexington, Virginia. I'd probably go to a big city, a big university. But what was your question? The changes that I've seen? Warren: What's the attraction? Leggett: The attraction. I think the attraction, for me, and I have to speak about this personally, is the student-faculty ratio, the quality of education, the caliber of the faculty, the curriculum. It's a varied curriculum, a wonderful curriculum. The physical plant. If I was an art student, I'd worry, because we need to work on that facility, and the music facility, and we're going to be doing something about that, but that now needs some concentrated effort. I think it's a beautiful campus, and I think that at the age of eighteen or nineteen, that would leave an impression on me. I like the size. I don't know at the age of eighteen that I would have been adjusted enough to go to a huge university. And there's just a flavor here. I brought a young man, who did not get in, over here. It was a rainy day, and he was going to go to look at Duke. We had a child that went to Duke. I said, "Okay, while you're spending a few days with me—" His father and my brother were in Vietnam together for a long time, and we sort of had a bond develop because of that relationship. I said, "While you're looking at Duke, let's go up and look at Washington and Lee. I just want to show you what it looks like." We walked across the campus, and out of twenty 19 students that we passed, eighteen said, "Good morning" to him. That impressed this youngster very much. He was very cosmopolitan. He was a wonderful javelin thrower, and had been working with a Denmark coach, Olympic coach, on javelin throwing. So he'd been around. When he left, it was his first choice, I think for the same reasons I'm telling you. I met faculty members, and I introduced him to faculty members. He had a personal tour of the campus and he had an interview. Lots of schools don't have interviews. Washington and Lee insists on it. Warren: I need to turn the tape over.