Leggett interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: I'm interested, perhaps more than I should be, in the issue of minority students coming here. Some of the most dramatic interviews I've done are with some of the very early black students. Leggett: Good. What do they say? Warren: They tell of tough times, of real hard times. But, boy, these were strong people. Leggett: Have to be. Warren: These are strong people. Leggett: We had a president of student government who's black. Did you interview him? Warren: Will Dumas? He's on my list of people to go to. Leggett: Yes. Delightful young man. He won't remember me, but he's a very impressive— Warren: I'm very much looking forward to meeting him. I've heard very good things about him. Leggett: And I'll be anxious to hear what he says. I mean, I'd like to know what he says. It's not an easy row to hoe for these black students. I would think not, because we have a very strong southern heritage. We've moved off the center of that, I think. I know we 20 have. I don't know what it would feel to be a black student here, but I think you would still feel some racism. Warren: Well, apparently it is, it's a factor. Leggett: I mean, it's in the student body, I think. We have students from the Deep South. It's changing, and it's changing with some rapidity, I think, and that's wonderful. It's not as bad as it used to be, no question. But I think they've had to be strong people. My hat's off to them. I think they are an important part of this university. Warren: Well, I sure do. I tell you, these guys I interviewed are some of the most impressive people I've ever met. Leggett: There's foreign students, too. Now, the young woman that I mentioned earlier that was a double minority, she was defeating herself. It was too bad. I was sorry, and I wanted so to tell her, and I regretted I didn't, because she was so negative, and you don't accomplish anything with negativism, is my experience. But, gosh, she was bright. Oh, she was so bright. Warren: I haven't met too many students who weren't very, very impressive. Leggett: Right. But don't you think it's interesting why they come here? Why do they say they come here? Warren: Well, those early guys came because they were trying to break through. That was the phase of Black Power, and they saw themselves as pioneers, and they had a mission that they were trying to achieve. But that's a different generation than we're dealing with now. Leggett: Why do they come now? Student aid? Warren: The student aid, and—I talked to one young man who came just for the same reasons you talked about. He walked on the campus, and said, "This is what a college is supposed to be. It's beautiful." But he's had a tough time. He's had a tough time. 21 Leggett: It has to be a job. I mean, I just am trying to be realistic about it. It has to be tough, but that's going to get better. I know it. And if it's going to get better anywhere, it's going to get better here. It's just going to take time. Warren: Well, I hope so. I really hope that an effort is being made to attract some of those dynamic black students, because faculty have told me, too, that the quality of the black students isn't what it used to be. They're not as stimulating and interesting people as—but it may be a sign of the times. Leggett: Sure. Who knows? Warren: You know those interesting people are out there. But as you say, why would they want to come to little Lexington, Virginia? Leggett: It's tough to make it attractive enough for them now, and I think the only way we're going to do that is through student aid. We've talked about that. Warren: Well, I hope it's an issue. I want to get back to something you said a little while ago. I'm not supposed to be injecting my point of view here, and I'm doing it. I grew up in Annapolis, and you talked about, you went to the Naval Academy to date, and you came here. Well, that's something I really know something about. Leggett: Good. Warren: Tell me what the difference is between dating at Washington and Lee, and dating at the Naval Academy. Leggett: Well, one difference is who you're dating, don't you think? Probably boils down to that. Who's the most attractive. And it's very glamorous to date at the Naval Academy. Uniforms are wonderful. And I had a very dear, dear friend who went there. There were a group of boys—midshipmen—I guess there were fifteen of them that were very close. I lived in Baltimore, and on football weekends, they all came for dinner every time there was a football game. We grew up through college that way, and it was a very special group. My father had been to West Point, my brother had been to West Point, so I had that military background. So I knew when you had to get to formation, 22 you had to get to formation. But it was glamorous to see them marching, and they had beautiful dances and tea dances and football games with bands. What girl wouldn't want to date at one of the academies? But I think if you were dead in love with a midshipman or cadet, it was tough. I wasn't dead in love, but I certainly had a good time. [Laughter] This is more me. This should be Washington and Lee. Let's get back to that. Warren: Well, no, it's something, I'm trying to get myself educated, too. Leggett: Okay. Warren: There's a term that's used around here, that I'm curious whether it was used in your day—"road schools." Were women's colleges called "road schools" then? Leggett: Well, probably not. I think they might be referring to the fact that some girls can come up on Wednesday and stay through Sunday. Is that what they mean? Warren: I don't know. Leggett: I don't know, either. Warren: I know that anyone who goes to Hollins or Randolph-Macon or Mary Baldwin, those are road schools. Leggett: Well, they're on the road, I guess. They've got to get on the road to get here, you know—male or female. Warren: But it's a term that I'm wondering whether it was in use in your day. Leggett: No, I've never heard it. I know there's a lot of—I don't know, it's just hard, I think, when you're the mother of girls. We were not as accessible when I was growing up. You know, we didn't call boys on the telephone, ever. And I can remember when our son was growing up, girls called him up all the time. And I said, "Reed, why do they do that?" But it's a different situation this day and time. Warren: So this concept of road schools, whether it was called that or not— Leggett: I don't think it's very flattering. 23 Warren: I don't either, but I'm interested in that time on the road. That was a dangerous trip you all were making, back and forth. Leggett: And there's usually one bad accident a year, too. 501. I live off 501, so I've gone that road a whole lot. It's a dangerous road, no question. And if you've had too much to drink, or even a little, that would set off your reaction. It would be extremely dangerous. It's a scary road. I think we're blessed that we don't have more trouble. But again, designated drivers, you hope, is what they're doing. Warren: But that was not a concept in use in your day? Leggett: Oh, we didn't think about it. Of course we didn't. Of course, we weren't drinking, so we got here and back on our own steam, most of the time. Warren: So they wouldn't come and get you and bring you back? The girls would bring you— Leggett: Sometimes, sometimes. Just depends, you know. Warren: It just seems like there must have been a lot of time spent on the road, literally. Leggett: But you didn't think about it then. What's forty-five minutes? Gosh, they drive down to Florida for spring break, don't you remember, non-stop? Think of the things we used to do! Just going across the mountain was a piece of cake. Warren: I guess so. How about fun places to go or out at Washington and Lee? Did you go out to Goshen? Leggett: Oh, sure. Had picnics. And you usually came up here on big weekends, where there were things going on all the time. I did not come every weekend, you know. I usually waited and came on big weekends. Warren: And what else besides Fancy Dress was a big weekend? Leggett: Oh, gosh. There were things at fraternity houses that were big. There were dances. Warren: Take me to a fraternity party. Leggett: I'm not going to take you to a fraternity party. 24 Warren: Take me! Oh, come on, please take me to a fraternity party. Leggett: Well, you all stood up, and talked, and—gosh, that takes me back so long. Oh, and I think they'd be awful to go to if I had to do it now. But that was where the action was, you know. You went out to dinner. That was fun. You sat around and talked. And I can remember the Betas, they had sort of a pick-up band, and that was great fun. Warren: What do you mean, a pick-up band? Leggett: Well, they all played instruments. There were five or six of them that played instruments. Warren: Right there in the fraternity house? Leggett: Yeah. Or if they weren't all from one, they would congregate. It was wonderful fun to sit and sing and listen. Warren: Can you remember who any of those musicians were? Leggett: No, but my husband could tell you everybody's name right away. Warren: Because I've got some wonderful photographs from that time period. Leggett: He could tell you. He could tell you. I'm not good on names. But, oh, gosh, they had a wonderful time. Somebody on the drums and the trumpet and piano. Warren: And would people dance, or just listen to the music? Leggett: Either way, whatever suited you. And you know, it's wonderful—this is a beautiful area to take picnics, or to hike. Blue Hole, we used to go swimming, the water freezing, freezing. And they'd come down to Randolph-Macon for dances. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: We had dinner dances. We had sororities at that time. We had sorority parties. They had fraternity parties. Warren: What kind of dances were there at Randolph-Macon? Was there something the equivalent of Fancy Dress? Leggett: Well, I guess the biggest dance while you were there was the senior dinner dance, and that was another big band. You couldn't afford to have many bands, so 25 those were always for the special dances, you know. There's a dance at Christmas, before Christmas break. At Annapolis we used to have tea dances. They didn't have tea dances. Don't you remember tea dances? Warren: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Leggett: We had those for receiving lines. One thing we haven't touched on is how this physical plant has changed. Warren: I'd like to talk more about that. Leggett: Which is something amazing to me, because during our tenure—my husband's and mine—we've had the Law Center built by two remarkable people to this university, Frances and Sydney Lewis. And I can remember, during that dedication, when we were standing up, they always did things together. They're a very close, wonderful couple. And when Sydney would get up to acknowledge the thanks, he would be up with Frances, and he would always include her in whatever he said. It just was wonderful to see, still is wonderful. They're devoted to each other. They've been so generous to this university. So, the law building. The Reeve Center. The Watson Pavilion. I knew Mrs. Watson very well. She's from Lynchburg, a dear friend. That was an interesting building to see completed. It was a very controversial area, to begin with. Warren: Why? Leggett: Because of where it was. It was sort of like one of the last free spaces that young people could toss a frisbee. And we had to take a maple tree down, and I can remember advising everybody, "Do not cut that maple tree down until spring break, or you're going to have one student chained to it, sure as shootin'." And I can remember when the board came to vote on the Watson Pavilion, or to accept it, or whatever, to make the decision, they had a banner across the Colonnade that said, "Save the tree, no more china." It was wonderful. 26 So we've had the Watson Pavilion, we've had the Gaines Dormitory, we've had the Lenfest Center, and now we've got the science building. So you think of those—I don't talk about the tennis pavilion, because that's not done. But you think of what footprints those buildings have left, and how they've changed this campus. It's very exciting. Now we're thinking of a Student Commons, Student Center. Warren: Where will that be? Leggett: That's a good point. We haven't decided. We're going to be hiring master planners who will give us a good idea of where it ought to go. Warren: I'm trying to look around, and figure out where it would be. So have you attended the openings of all these buildings? Leggett: I have only missed one day of one board meeting in twelve years, and I had to go to my godson's wedding in Brooklyn. Yes, I've been to everything. Wouldn't not come if I was physically able. Warren: Well, take me to some of those parties. Leggett: All right. I'll tell you one that was very lovely, was the unveiling of the portrait of Justice [Lewis] Powell. He was here, and he's such a remarkable man, that it was a very touching ceremony. He has such great humility, and is dearly loved. That was special; it makes me teary now. I don't know why. To have been there. And, of course, the law school dedication. The Lenfest Center opening, when Jim Whitehead— we had—what was the restaurant? Sardi's. And Mr. Sardi came down. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Oh, we had a wonderful dinner party. Jim Whitehead should have been Mr. Barnum & Bailey. He is. I could tell you lots of fun stories. I'll tell you a few, if I can get them all together. But the Lenfest Center, we had dinner in the Black Box. Have you been down in that room? Warren: Tell me about it. 27 Leggett: They'd done sketches of all the board members, like Sardi's, across the thing. Sardi came down himself with his wife. Jim Whitehead had met him in his restaurant, and just got this brainstorm. "We'll do a Sardi's. Will you come?" He said, "Of course I'll come." Matches, his matches. Everything came. So we transplanted Sardi's New York to the Lenfest Center. We had a wonderful time. Then I can remember we had a board meeting, and Jim always had a theme, and that year it was the Year of the Tiger. You know, the Chinese always have a year of something, and this was the Year of the Tiger. We walked in to dinner. Saturday night was always an event. That was our big dinner, and if we had donors that we were dining, that's when they came, and so forth. They had a pavilion built, and by damn, inside the pavilion was a tiger. Lord knows where they got him. He was so drugged, he couldn't move, and we just got convulsions. Let me think of other things that we've done that have been fun. Warren: That is a riot! [Laughter] Leggett: So many fun things that happened. There was something else I was going to tell you. When you think of dedications. And I think, to me, it is simply amazing, Washington and Lee puts on an event, it's the most beautifully done. You know, to come up to graduation. Have you been to a graduation, where everybody gathers for lunch? The graduation—if it's a beautiful day, and there haven't been many that weren't—in front of that Colonnade, it's very special. And I like the tradition that the president gives the talk on graduation day. I think that's wonderful, and it's very unique, actually. I've been very impressed in academic affairs, when we decide on who's going to have an honorary degree. Warren: How does that get determined? Leggett: Well, it's determined—a lot of people, faculty advise it, and the Admissions Committee looks at it. So there have been lots of wonderful highlights that I've watched and been part of some. And it's been wonderful to see—we were talking about this—I 28 was talking about this with John Elrod when we were up at Skylark—that the Board of Trustees that have passed through this university have been some of the most exceptional men and women, not as many women, but exceptional, who have been absolutely devoted to this school. And I'll tell you, Ross [Randolph] Millhiser was one of the few trustees that have no connection, and he was—I'm trying to think—CEO— you'll have to ask what he did. Warren: I don't know him. Leggett: Oh, he's lovely. Ross Millhiser. He was with a tobacco firm, and I can't think of what it is. But find out, because I'd love for him to be mentioned. When I first came to board meetings, it was very intimidating, it really was. "Jinx" [Virginia Rogers] Holton was on the board, as was Frances Lewis, and there were just three women, and we did not sit together, on purpose. We said, "We'll scatter ourselves around." When we went to meals, when I went to lunch, Ross Millhiser always—the first three meetings, always took me to lunch and sat with me. If there was any place that we were seated, usually Saturday night we had name cards or something, he was sure that I had a seat, and very often it was sitting with him. And that meant a lot to me, because it took me about three or four board meetings to feel like, one, I'd say anything, and to sort of have a feeling of belonging. Now I really do. It's wonderful, the way men come up to me when I'm here. I leave here feeling very good, very flattered. It's very special. Now, I'm trying to think of some of the other fun things that we've had. The law school dedication. Of course, that was a big step, a tremendously big step. John Elrod's inauguration. Warren: I missed that by a few days. Leggett: It was wonderful, as was John Wilson's. Warren: One of things that has impressed me, for the events that I've been here, is the perfect weather. I think this place has a direct link. Leggett: Wouldn't it be wonderful? 29 Warren: I have yet to have some event that I've been involved with— Leggett: Oh, we had a law school graduation that had to be in. That was the one when the law students voted to have Tom Wolfe be their speaker. Have you heard Tom Wolfe speak? Warren: Not in person. Leggett: He's a character in this world. He was the speaker they wanted, and he was superb, superb. He talked about men's second marriages, and he called those wives his "trophy wives." Oh, he's just a picnic. He really is. It was exciting to have him on the board. He was on the board when Bonfire of the Vanities was published. So we got that spinoff from him. He wore his white suit to every board meeting, and he used to do doodles. He did caricatures of the board members, and did doodles. Jinx Holton and I would try to get those doodles. She always won. But it's fun, because every now and then, I'll write him a note, and he'll send me a sort of a little something. Wonderful man. It was just delightful to have him be on the board. He gave a lot of himself to this school. He'd meet and have seminars, and all those good things. Warren: There are a lot of really remarkable people involved with this place. Leggett: No question, no question. And now Bill Johnston, you know, is second-in- command of Wall Street. You knew that. Warren: I don't know Bill Johnston. Leggett: He's a new board member. He has been made—he's not CEO, he's either CEO or president of the stock exchange. Be a good one to interview. You've interviewed Gerry Lenfest? Warren: I had a date with him, and he canceled that on me. I'm hoping to get him in the fall. I have to go up to Philadelphia in the fall. Leggett: Do it. He'll be fun. Warren: Do you know any particular questions I should ask him? Have you ever heard him tell stories about Washington and Lee? 30 Leggett: I think one good question might be, Mame, is why did he think that the capital campaign was such a success? He provided wonderful leadership, but I think there must be a formula there somewhere. We were advised to raise $125 million, I think, and we went out for a whole lot more. I think it came to $147, if I can remember correctly. But that shows a lot of support. He'll be a good one to ask about the capital campaign, and he'll have wonderful stories to tell. These men have been here. They can tell you what they did here at this school. A lot of it they won't tell. [Laughter] Warren: That's the thing. If I know the right questions to ask, sometimes I can get terrific stories. Leggett: Well, you'll have terrific stories with Gerry, because he's got a wonderful sense of humor. He's fun. Warren: Great, great, great. Well, I'm looking forward to that. I had a great time with Sydney and Frances last week. Leggett: Yes, of course you did. Warren: And she was wonderful. Leggett: Isn't she wonderful? Warren: Well, I just loved her, but she also prompted him. She said, "Oh, don't forget to tell her about the—" And, oh, the stories that came out were just fabulous, just wonderful. Just wonderful. Leggett: And, you know, to be associated with people like that. I remember when we were in Houston, she took me to some art gallery. We had a little time, or maybe there was an event planned, and she took me through that art gallery, and I must tell you, that I looked at portraits of just grey paint and green paint, period, and she told me why that was so wonderful. It was a good experience, a good learning experience. I was not totally convinced, but I enjoyed the opportunity to have her do that. 31 Warren: I can imagine that would be an education. What's your most memorable experience at Washington and Lee? You've got big, grand, many, many years, many, many possibilities. If you could pick one experience, what would it be? Leggett: Oh, there have been so many, but I think one was interesting. When I was president of the Garden Club of Virginia, which was a two-year job, and I've just finished, we dedicated the Robert E. Lee Garden, and it was lovely being able to do that at Washington and Lee, which I love, the two organizations that I love the most, that I've worked the hardest for, to come together. It was a very special day. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, the Garden Club of Virginia restores historic gardens throughout the state. We've done about thirty-eight. Washington and Lee came to us to do something to provide a setting for Robert E. Lee House that the president could entertain, sort of have a garden party. There was no documentation for the garden. We had some letters from Lee talking about a rose garden. He used to bring roses in to his daughters and his wife at the breakfast table. So we did a garden that could have been here when Lee was here, and dedicated it. It's big enough to have a tent. In fact, Sarah Wilson was married and had the reception there, which was lovely. They use it for smaller parties—Parents' Weekend, I think. But it was nice to do that garden and see it become a reality, and have it here. We've been here before—on Lee Chapel, we did that brick terrace at Lee Chapel, and some of the planning there. Warren: You were involved with that? Leggett: No, that was before my time. That was about 1970. Warren: I thought that was there, when I came here for that. Leggett: That was nice. Warren: You know, there are such spectacular trees on this campus. Leggett: There are, and they need to be taken care of. The one thing I'd like to see happen that hasn't yet, and probably won't be during my tenure, is I would like— 32 Liberty Hall, which was the beginning of this school, basically, we repointed those stones, because they needed to be done. Have you been to Liberty Hall? Warren: Yes. Leggett: And I would like to see that be interpreted, that site be interpreted, with signage, and maybe a small—you know, they've be excavating there. Maybe some kind of a little small center, interpretation center. Now, I don't mean a museum, but I think that is the beginning of this school, and I'd like to see that area really appreciated. So I'm going to work with that some day soon. That's on my wish list. Warren: So what do you think it's going to be like leaving the board? Leggett: Oh, it'll be dreadful, dreadful. I will come back from time to time, because trustee emeritus do come back. And I'll stay involved. I'll raise money if they want me to. Warren: Oh, I'm sure they want you to. [Laughter] Leggett: That's sort of ongoing. And I'll stay in contact. Alumni College is a good way to do that. And I have friends here, you know, who mean a lot. Warren: I know you are very well thought of. When I told people I was going to be talking with you, they said— Leggett: Well, everybody you will interview is well thought of. Every board member is well thought of. Warren: Well, you got a sparkle from people, though, that not everybody got. Leggett: Oh, that was sweet. I know there are lots of things I'm going to forget that I haven't told you. Warren: Well, it's been a real mission of mine to make sure we include the women in this book, because, you know, the vast majority of the history of this school is a man's school. Leggett: Sure. 33 Warren: But a lot of women have been very important to this place, and as the years go by, we're going to have more and more and more on they. Leggett: Sure. Warren: So this book I'm preparing, I hope will have a long shelf life, and I want women to see themselves in this book and feel comfortable with this book. Leggett: Are you going to interview Mary Tyler Cheek at all? Warren: Her name has not been suggested. Leggett: Well, they gave Skylark, you know, to the university. Warren: Okay, now I recognize the name. Leggett: I don't know whether you have a place where—Skylark is pretty spectacular. Have you been up there, Mame? Warren: I haven't. Leggett: Oh, we've got to get you up there. You've got to go in the fall when the leaves change. It is one fabulous place. I think if I had to name great ladies in the state of Virginia, she would be on top of the list. Warren: Really? Leggett: She's a very bright—she's done it all. She's had every position. She really is remarkable, and it might be fun to talk to her. I don't know how old Mary Tyler is. The board met in Alexandria, and we went to Christ Church, which was where Lee was confirmed. He wasn't confirmed until he was forty. And she gave the loveliest talk, without a note. Her father was Douglas Southall Freeman. And she has a love of this school, and had she been younger, she would have been on this board. Warren: And where does she live? Leggett: She lives in Richmond, Virginia, so that's not too far from here. Warren: No, and I'm going to be seeing people there. Leggett: Ask Jim Whitehead. Of course, Frank Parsons knows her. Ask Farris Hotchkiss. She's now McClenahan. Her husband died. Mr. Cheek died, and she married 34 a man that she knew early on in her life. It's Mary Tyler McClennahan, and I am a real fan. Warren: Well, I will certainly ask Farris about her. Leggett: And, of course, Jinx Holton is a pistol. You'll have to interview her. She's very bright. I was just trying to think of one more. Of course, there are lots of women behind these husbands, too. Warren: I want to thank you for spending this time today. I've really enjoyed it. Leggett: You're so welcome. Can't wait to get your book. Warren: Oh, I can't wait either. But I'm having too much fun doing it. I don't want to rush it too much. Leggett: You'll have fun in the making of it, too. Warren: I am, I am. [End of Interview] 35 ce and play. Warren: So this is even before Washington and Lee? Leggett: Fourteen years old. Warren: Oh, so you didn't meet while you were at Washington and Lee? 15 Leggett: That's right, and when we got to college, we were dating other people. He dated a lot of people; I dated a lot of people. But I did come to Fancy Dress with him. That was good. Warren: So what was it like? Did you have a sense of how seriously, or unseriously, they took being Washington and Lee students? Leggett: How serious do you take being a college student? I don't know. Warren: Well, did they present themselves as Washington and Lee men? Was that a big deal, or were they just college students? Leggett: Well, I think you categorize, don't you? VMI cadet. If you dated VMI cadets, that was a whole other thing. I liked dating at Washington and Lee. I also dated at the Naval Academy. I dated at Duke. Washington and Lee was very different from Duke. First of all, it was easier to get to. It was not as big, which appealed to me. You got to know the boys better. If you wanted a blind date, you could find out in a hurry what they were like. Warren: Tell me what you mean by that. Leggett: Well, if you had a blind date, you knew somebody that was over here, you know, and you could say, somebody you—a brother or cousin—and you could say, "Tell me about Joe Blow. What's he like?" You know, before you really committed. It was easier to do that here than it would be at Duke, because Duke wasn't a small community. When you came over here, you knew people, you know. Maybe you do that at other great big schools. I didn't see that as much at UVA, but you could come across this campus and see people you knew, more often than not. Warren: See students you knew? Leggett: Yes. Warren: Did you get to know any faculty? Leggett: Yes, I did. I got to know faculty that were some of my husband's favorites. Warren: Can you remember who they were? 16 Leggett: I remember Steve Stevephenson, who would have us to supper. He'd have his students to supper. Warren: And you'd be invited along? Leggett: Yes. Warren: That's interesting. I hadn't heard that before. Leggett: I think the faculty is very accessible to these students, not just—not in-class time—they were available. And relationships grow. That's one thing I've really known about this school. I see that, as a board member. And if you go with a faculty member anywhere across campus, and very often I will, he stops and talks to the students, or she stops and talks to the students. It's wonderful. They're very lucky. I think that's exceptional here, truly. When I bring students, you know, I—when you're on the board, students do ask you to intervene for them if they are seeking admission. If they don't have a chance, I don't do that. I ask them what their board scores are and what their grades were in high school. If they don't have a chance, I discourage it right away. Or I will call the admissions office and ask them what kind of a chance, if they're coming early decision. And if they don't have a good chance, I tell them, "Start looking around to other schools," because I don't want them to have their heart set. But one of the selling points, of course, it's a very popular place to get in. You don't need to sell it. But when students come to me, and that's an—I enjoy doing that for the university. I enjoy interviewing students and writing letters for them. I will not write a letter for a student I don't know. If they're interested in Washington and Lee, and they tell me their junior year, I say, "Okay. Let's meet a couple of times." And I ask. I say, "I'm going to ask about you. I'm going to call your high school counselor." Therefore, for a good student, I can work hard to get them in. Warren: That must be exciting, to play a role like that. 17 Leggett: It is fun. It is fun. It's also hard if they don't get in. It's very hard. But I think you've got to be very open and fair, and they appreciate it. I would. I had a wonderful young girl that I would have taken in a minute, who went early decision. I said, "You haven't got a chance to get in early decision," because I'd called up here. And I said, "I'm not sure you have a chance of getting in at all. But I want you to know that, and if it was up to me, I'd take you tomorrow." She did not get in, but she knew it. Her sister has come and gotten in. She's a precious girl, and has done very well where she went, but it's not a school that Washington and Lee was academically. So it was a happy decision, but it's tough in the choosing. It's very tough. Warren: So you've seen Washington and Lee change academically? Leggett: Oh, no question. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, you know the changes, since they went coeducational. Warren: Well, you tell me. Leggett: Well, as I've just told you, men that have been here said they wouldn't have a chance to get in here now. I'm not sure that's true, but it's much more difficult. They're taking the top student. You know, this is no safety school. It used to be a safety school. By that I mean the normal child would put it on their list, and if they were a "C" student, or "C+" student, they could probably get in, the boys. Not anymore. Warren: What do you think the attraction is to a student from Iowa, who isn't an alumni student? Leggett: That's interesting. Talking to students—occasionally we will have a meal with them. They'll have lunch with us. And I will ask this, particularly the minority student. Minority students usually receive financial aid. If I was a minority student, and I had a wonderful talk with this girl—"woman," excuse me. I shouldn't call them "girls"; they're women. She said, "You know, Ms. Leggett, I'm a double minority." And I said, "I've never heard that before." Of course, she was black and a female. And I said, "That's so 18 interesting." Unfortunately, this woman has a chip on her shoulder, and I was sorry to see that. She was being very critical of a lot of policy, and I think that was unfortunate. Therefore, Washington and Lee was not the experience that I'd hope she'd have. But nonetheless, a minority student would not come to Lexington. Why would you come? It's not a metropolitan area that they could really enjoy. There are very few minorities here. And I'm sorry; I'd like to see that increase. And I think good financial aid, increasing financial aid, will get more. Time's changing, too. Ten years ago, it was very tough to get a minority student. And if I was black, I wouldn't want to come to Lexington, Virginia. I'd probably go to a big city, a big university. But what was your question? The changes that I've seen? Warren: What's the attraction? Leggett: The attraction. I think the attraction, for me, and I have to speak about this personally, is the student-faculty ratio, the quality of education, the caliber of the faculty, the curriculum. It's a varied curriculum, a wonderful curriculum. The physical plant. If I was an art student, I'd worry, because we need to work on that facility, and the music facility, and we're going to be doing something about that, but that now needs some concentrated effort. I think it's a beautiful campus, and I think that at the age of eighteen or nineteen, that would leave an impression on me. I like the size. I don't know at the age of eighteen that I would have been adjusted enough to go to a huge university. And there's just a flavor here. I brought a young man, who did not get in, over here. It was a rainy day, and he was going to go to look at Duke. We had a child that went to Duke. I said, "Okay, while you're spending a few days with me—" His father and my brother were in Vietnam together for a long time, and we sort of had a bond develop because of that relationship. I said, "While you're looking at Duke, let's go up and look at Washington and Lee. I just want to show you what it looks like." We walked across the campus, and out of twenty 19 students that we passed, eighteen said, "Good morning" to him. That impressed this youngster very much. He was very cosmopolitan. He was a wonderful javelin thrower, and had been working with a Denmark coach, Olympic coach, on javelin throwing. So he'd been around. When he left, it was his first choice, I think for the same reasons I'm telling you. I met faculty members, and I introduced him to faculty members. He had a personal tour of the campus and he had an interview. Lots of schools don't have interviews. Washington and Lee insists on it. Warren: I need to turn the tape over. [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: I'm interested, perhaps more than I should be, in the issue of minority students coming here. Some of the most dramatic interviews I've done are with some of the very early black students. Leggett: Good. What do they say? Warren: They tell of tough times, of real hard times. But, boy, these were strong people. Leggett: Have to be. Warren: These are strong people. Leggett: We had a president of student government who's black. Did you interview him? Warren: Will Dumas? He's on my list of people to go to. Leggett: Yes. Delightful young man. He won't remember me, but he's a very impressive— Warren: I'm very much looking forward to meeting him. I've heard very good things about him. Leggett: And I'll be anxious to hear what he says. I mean, I'd like to know what he says. It's not an easy row to hoe for these black students. I would think not, because we have a very strong southern heritage. We've moved off the center of that, I think. I know we 20 have. I don't know what it would feel to be a black student here, but I think you would still feel some racism. Warren: Well, apparently it is, it's a factor. Leggett: I mean, it's in the student body, I think. We have students from the Deep South. It's changing, and it's changing with some rapidity, I think, and that's wonderful. It's not as bad as it used to be, no question. But I think they've had to be strong people. My hat's off to them. I think they are an important part of this university. Warren: Well, I sure do. I tell you, these guys I interviewed are some of the most impressive people I've ever met. Leggett: There's foreign students, too. Now, the young woman that I mentioned earlier that was a double minority, she was defeating herself. It was too bad. I was sorry, and I wanted so to tell her, and I regretted I didn't, because she was so negative, and you don't accomplish anything with negativism, is my experience. But, gosh, she was bright. Oh, she was so bright. Warren: I haven't met too many students who weren't very, very impressive. Leggett: Right. But don't you think it's interesting why they come here? Why do they say they come here? Warren: Well, those early guys came because they were trying to break through. That was the phase of Black Power, and they saw themselves as pioneers, and they had a mission that they were trying to achieve. But that's a different generation than we're dealing with now. Leggett: Why do they come now? Student aid? Warren: The student aid, and—I talked to one young man who came just for the same reasons you talked about. He walked on the campus, and said, "This is what a college is supposed to be. It's beautiful." But he's had a tough time. He's had a tough time. 21 Leggett: It has to be a job. I mean, I just am trying to be realistic about it. It has to be tough, but that's going to get better. I know it. And if it's going to get better anywhere, it's going to get better here. It's just going to take time. Warren: Well, I hope so. I really hope that an effort is being made to attract some of those dynamic black students, because faculty have told me, too, that the quality of the black students isn't what it used to be. They're not as stimulating and interesting people as—but it may be a sign of the times. Leggett: Sure. Who knows? Warren: You know those interesting people are out there. But as you say, why would they want to come to little Lexington, Virginia? Leggett: It's tough to make it attractive enough for them now, and I think the only way we're going to do that is through student aid. We've talked about that. Warren: Well, I hope it's an issue. I want to get back to something you said a little while ago. I'm not supposed to be injecting my point of view here, and I'm doing it. I grew up in Annapolis, and you talked about, you went to the Naval Academy to date, and you came here. Well, that's something I really know something about. Leggett: Good. Warren: Tell me what the difference is between dating at Washington and Lee, and dating at the Naval Academy. Leggett: Well, one difference is who you're dating, don't you think? Probably boils down to that. Who's the most attractive. And it's very glamorous to date at the Naval Academy. Uniforms are wonderful. And I had a very dear, dear friend who went there. There were a group of boys—midshipmen—I guess there were fifteen of them that were very close. I lived in Baltimore, and on football weekends, they all came for dinner every time there was a football game. We grew up through college that way, and it was a very special group. My father had been to West Point, my brother had been to West Point, so I had that military background. So I knew when you had to get to formation, 22 you had to get to formation. But it was glamorous to see them marching, and they had beautiful dances and tea dances and football games with bands. What girl wouldn't want to date at one of the academies? But I think if you were dead in love with a midshipman or cadet, it was tough. I wasn't dead in love, but I certainly had a good time. [Laughter] This is more me. This should be Washington and Lee. Let's get back to that. Warren: Well, no, it's something, I'm trying to get myself educated, too. Leggett: Okay. Warren: There's a term that's used around here, that I'm curious whether it was used in your day—"road schools." Were women's colleges called "road schools" then? Leggett: Well, probably not. I think they might be referring to the fact that some girls can come up on Wednesday and stay through Sunday. Is that what they mean? Warren: I don't know. Leggett: I don't know, either. Warren: I know that anyone who goes to Hollins or Randolph-Macon or Mary Baldwin, those are road schools. Leggett: Well, they're on the road, I guess. They've got to get on the road to get here, you know—male or female. Warren: But it's a term that I'm wondering whether it was in use in your day. Leggett: No, I've never heard it. I know there's a lot of—I don't know, it's just hard, I think, when you're the mother of girls. We were not as accessible when I was growing up. You know, we didn't call boys on the telephone, ever. And I can remember when our son was growing up, girls called him up all the time. And I said, "Reed, why do they do that?" But it's a different situation this day and time. Warren: So this concept of road schools, whether it was called that or not— Leggett: I don't think it's very flattering. 23 Warren: I don't either, but I'm interested in that time on the road. That was a dangerous trip you all were making, back and forth. Leggett: And there's usually one bad accident a year, too. 501. I live off 501, so I've gone that road a whole lot. It's a dangerous road, no question. And if you've had too much to drink, or even a little, that would set off your reaction. It would be extremely dangerous. It's a scary road. I think we're blessed that we don't have more trouble. But again, designated drivers, you hope, is what they're doing. Warren: But that was not a concept in use in your day? Leggett: Oh, we didn't think about it. Of course we didn't. Of course, we weren't drinking, so we got here and back on our own steam, most of the time. Warren: So they wouldn't come and get you and bring you back? The girls would bring you— Leggett: Sometimes, sometimes. Just depends, you know. Warren: It just seems like there must have been a lot of time spent on the road, literally. Leggett: But you didn't think about it then. What's forty-five minutes? Gosh, they drive down to Florida for spring break, don't you remember, non-stop? Think of the things we used to do! Just going across the mountain was a piece of cake. Warren: I guess so. How about fun places to go or out at Washington and Lee? Did you go out to Goshen? Leggett: Oh, sure. Had picnics. And you usually came up here on big weekends, where there were things going on all the time. I did not come every weekend, you know. I usually waited and came on big weekends. Warren: And what else besides Fancy Dress was a big weekend? Leggett: Oh, gosh. There were things at fraternity houses that were big. There were dances. Warren: Take me to a fraternity party. Leggett: I'm not going to take you to a fraternity party. 24 Warren: Take me! Oh, come on, please take me to a fraternity party. Leggett: Well, you all stood up, and talked, and—gosh, that takes me back so long. Oh, and I think they'd be awful to go to if I had to do it now. But that was where the action was, you know. You went out to dinner. That was fun. You sat around and talked. And I can remember the Betas, they had sort of a pick-up band, and that was great fun. Warren: What do you mean, a pick-up band? Leggett: Well, they all played instruments. There were five or six of them that played instruments. Warren: Right there in the fraternity house? Leggett: Yeah. Or if they weren't all from one, they would congregate. It was wonderful fun to sit and sing and listen. Warren: Can you remember who any of those musicians were? Leggett: No, but my husband could tell you everybody's name right away. Warren: Because I've got some wonderful photographs from that time period. Leggett: He could tell you. He could tell you. I'm not good on names. But, oh, gosh, they had a wonderful time. Somebody on the drums and the trumpet and piano. Warren: And would people dance, or just listen to the music? Leggett: Either way, whatever suited you. And you know, it's wonderful—this is a beautiful area to take picnics, or to hike. Blue Hole, we used to go swimming, the water freezing, freezing. And they'd come down to Randolph-Macon for dances. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: We had dinner dances. We had sororities at that time. We had sorority parties. They had fraternity parties. Warren: What kind of dances were there at Randolph-Macon? Was there something the equivalent of Fancy Dress? Leggett: Well, I guess the biggest dance while you were there was the senior dinner dance, and that was another big band. You couldn't afford to have many bands, so 25 those were always for the special dances, you know. There's a dance at Christmas, before Christmas break. At Annapolis we used to have tea dances. They didn't have tea dances. Don't you remember tea dances? Warren: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Leggett: We had those for receiving lines. One thing we haven't touched on is how this physical plant has changed. Warren: I'd like to talk more about that. Leggett: Which is something amazing to me, because during our tenure—my husband's and mine—we've had the Law Center built by two remarkable people to this university, Frances and Sydney Lewis. And I can remember, during that dedication, when we were standing up, they always did things together. They're a very close, wonderful couple. And when Sydney would get up to acknowledge the thanks, he would be up with Frances, and he would always include her in whatever he said. It just was wonderful to see, still is wonderful. They're devoted to each other. They've been so generous to this university. So, the law building. The Reeve Center. The Watson Pavilion. I knew Mrs. Watson very well. She's from Lynchburg, a dear friend. That was an interesting building to see completed. It was a very controversial area, to begin with. Warren: Why? Leggett: Because of where it was. It was sort of like one of the last free spaces that young people could toss a frisbee. And we had to take a maple tree down, and I can remember advising everybody, "Do not cut that maple tree down until spring break, or you're going to have one student chained to it, sure as shootin'." And I can remember when the board came to vote on the Watson Pavilion, or to accept it, or whatever, to make the decision, they had a banner across the Colonnade that said, "Save the tree, no more china." It was wonderful. 26 So we've had the Watson Pavilion, we've had the Gaines Dormitory, we've had the Lenfest Center, and now we've got the science building. So you think of those—I don't talk about the tennis pavilion, because that's not done. But you think of what footprints those buildings have left, and how they've changed this campus. It's very exciting. Now we're thinking of a Student Commons, Student Center. Warren: Where will that be? Leggett: That's a good point. We haven't decided. We're going to be hiring master planners who will give us a good idea of where it ought to go. Warren: I'm trying to look around, and figure out where it would be. So have you attended the openings of all these buildings? Leggett: I have only missed one day of one board meeting in twelve years, and I had to go to my godson's wedding in Brooklyn. Yes, I've been to everything. Wouldn't not come if I was physically able. Warren: Well, take me to some of those parties. Leggett: All right. I'll tell you one that was very lovely, was the unveiling of the portrait of Justice [Lewis] Powell. He was here, and he's such a remarkable man, that it was a very touching ceremony. He has such great humility, and is dearly loved. That was special; it makes me teary now. I don't know why. To have been there. And, of course, the law school dedication. The Lenfest Center opening, when Jim Whitehead— we had—what was the restaurant? Sardi's. And Mr. Sardi came down. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Oh, we had a wonderful dinner party. Jim Whitehead should have been Mr. Barnum & Bailey. He is. I could tell you lots of fun stories. I'll tell you a few, if I can get them all together. But the Lenfest Center, we had dinner in the Black Box. Have you been down in that room? Warren: Tell me about it. 27 Leggett: They'd done sketches of all the board members, like Sardi's, across the thing. Sardi came down himself with his wife. Jim Whitehead had met him in his restaurant, and just got this brainstorm. "We'll do a Sardi's. Will you come?" He said, "Of course I'll come." Matches, his matches. Everything came. So we transplanted Sardi's New York to the Lenfest Center. We had a wonderful time. Then I can remember we had a board meeting, and Jim always had a theme, and that year it was the Year of the Tiger. You know, the Chinese always have a year of something, and this was the Year of the Tiger. We walked in to dinner. Saturday night was always an event. That was our big dinner, and if we had donors that we were dining, that's when they came, and so forth. They had a pavilion built, and by damn, inside the pavilion was a tiger. Lord knows where they got him. He was so drugged, he couldn't move, and we just got convulsions. Let me think of other things that we've done that have been fun. Warren: That is a riot! [Laughter] Leggett: So many fun things that happened. There was something else I was going to tell you. When you think of dedications. And I think, to me, it is simply amazing, Washington and Lee puts on an event, it's the most beautifully done. You know, to come up to graduation. Have you been to a graduation, where everybody gathers for lunch? The graduation—if it's a beautiful day, and there haven't been many that weren't—in front of that Colonnade, it's very special. And I like the tradition that the president gives the talk on graduation day. I think that's wonderful, and it's very unique, actually. I've been very impressed in academic affairs, when we decide on who's going to have an honorary degree. Warren: How does that get determined? Leggett: Well, it's determined—a lot of people, faculty advise it, and the Admissions Committee looks at it. So there have been lots of wonderful highlights that I've watched and been part of some. And it's been wonderful to see—we were talking about this—I 28 was talking about this with John Elrod when we were up at Skylark—that the Board of Trustees that have passed through this university have been some of the most exceptional men and women, not as many women, but exceptional, who have been absolutely devoted to this school. And I'll tell you, Ross [Randolph] Millhiser was one of the few trustees that have no connection, and he was—I'm trying to think—CEO— you'll have to ask what he did. Warren: I don't know him. Leggett: Oh, he's lovely. Ross Millhiser. He was with a tobacco firm, and I can't think of what it is. But find out, because I'd love for him to be mentioned. When I first came to board meetings, it was very intimidating, it really was. "Jinx" [Virginia Rogers] Holton was on the board, as was Frances Lewis, and there were just three women, and we did not sit together, on purpose. We said, "We'll scatter ourselves around." When we went to meals, when I went to lunch, Ross Millhiser always—the first three meetings, always took me to lunch and sat with me. If there was any place that we were seated, usually Saturday night we had name cards or something, he was sure that I had a seat, and very often it was sitting with him. And that meant a lot to me, because it took me about three or four board meetings to feel like, one, I'd say anything, and to sort of have a feeling of belonging. Now I really do. It's wonderful, the way men come up to me when I'm here. I leave here feeling very good, very flattered. It's very special. Now, I'm trying to think of some of the other fun things that we've had. The law school dedication. Of course, that was a big step, a tremendously big step. John Elrod's inauguration. Warren: I missed that by a few days. Leggett: It was wonderful, as was John Wilson's. Warren: One of things that has impressed me, for the events that I've been here, is the perfect weather. I think this place has a direct link. Leggett: Wouldn't it be wonderful? 29 Warren: I have yet to have some event that I've been involved with— Leggett: Oh, we had a law school graduation that had to be in. That was the one when the law students voted to have Tom Wolfe be their speaker. Have you heard Tom Wolfe speak? Warren: Not in person. Leggett: He's a character in this world. He was the speaker they wanted, and he was superb, superb. He talked about men's second marriages, and he called those wives his "trophy wives." Oh, he's just a picnic. He really is. It was exciting to have him on the board. He was on the board when Bonfire of the Vanities was published. So we got that spinoff from him. He wore his white suit to every board meeting, and he used to do doodles. He did caricatures of the board members, and did doodles. Jinx Holton and I would try to get those doodles. She always won. But it's fun, because every now and then, I'll write him a note, and he'll send me a sort of a little something. Wonderful man. It was just delightful to have him be on the board. He gave a lot of himself to this school. He'd meet and have seminars, and all those good things. Warren: There are a lot of really remarkable people involved with this place. Leggett: No question, no question. And now Bill Johnston, you know, is second-in- command of Wall Street. You knew that. Warren: I don't know Bill Johnston. Leggett: He's a new board member. He has been made—he's not CEO, he's either CEO or president of the stock exchange. Be a good one to interview. You've interviewed Gerry Lenfest? Warren: I had a date with him, and he canceled that on me. I'm hoping to get him in the fall. I have to go up to Philadelphia in the fall. Leggett: Do it. He'll be fun. Warren: Do you know any particular questions I should ask him? Have you ever heard him tell stories about Washington and Lee? 30 Leggett: I think one good question might be, Mame, is why did he think that the capital campaign was such a success? He provided wonderful leadership, but I think there must be a formula there somewhere. We were advised to raise $125 million, I think, and we went out for a whole lot more. I think it came to $147, if I can remember correctly. But that shows a lot of support. He'll be a good one to ask about the capital campaign, and he'll have wonderful stories to tell. These men have been here. They can tell you what they did here at this school. A lot of it they won't tell. [Laughter] Warren: That's the thing. If I know the right questions to ask, sometimes I can get terrific stories. Leggett: Well, you'll have terrific stories with Gerry, because he's got a wonderful sense of humor. He's fun. Warren: Great, great, great. Well, I'm looking forward to that. I had a great time with Sydney and Frances last week. Leggett: Yes, of course you did. Warren: And she was wonderful. Leggett: Isn't she wonderful? Warren: Well, I just loved her, but she also prompted him. She said, "Oh, don't forget to tell her about the—" And, oh, the stories that came out were just fabulous, just wonderful. Just wonderful. Leggett: And, you know, to be associated with people like that. I remember when we were in Houston, she took me to some art gallery. We had a little time, or maybe there was an event planned, and she took me through that art gallery, and I must tell you, that I looked at portraits of just grey paint and green paint, period, and she told me why that was so wonderful. It was a good experience, a good learning experience. I was not totally convinced, but I enjoyed the opportunity to have her do that. 31 Warren: I can imagine that would be an education. What's your most memorable experience at Washington and Lee? You've got big, grand, many, many years, many, many possibilities. If you could pick one experience, what would it be? Leggett: Oh, there have been so many, but I think one was interesting. When I was president of the Garden Club of Virginia, which was a two-year job, and I've just finished, we dedicated the Robert E. Lee Garden, and it was lovely being able to do that at Washington and Lee, which I love, the two organizations that I love the most, that I've worked the hardest for, to come together. It was a very special day. Warren: Tell me about that. Leggett: Well, the Garden Club of Virginia restores historic gardens throughout the state. We've done about thirty-eight. Washington and Lee came to us to do something to provide a setting for Robert E. Lee House that the president could entertain, sort of have a garden party. There was no documentation for the garden. We had some letters from Lee talking about a rose garden. He used to bring roses in to his daughters and his wife at the breakfast table. So we did a garden that could have been here when Lee was here, and dedicated it. It's big enough to have a tent. In fact, Sarah Wilson was married and had the reception there, which was lovely. They use it for smaller parties—Parents' Weekend, I think. But it was nice to do that garden and see it become a reality, and have it here. We've been here before—on Lee Chapel, we did that brick terrace at Lee Chapel, and some of the planning there. Warren: You were involved with that? Leggett: No, that was before my time. That was about 1970. Warren: I thought that was there, when I came here for that. Leggett: That was nice. Warren: You know, there are such spectacular trees on this campus. Leggett: There are, and they need to be taken care of. The one thing I'd like to see happen that hasn't yet, and probably won't be during my tenure, is I would like— 32 Liberty Hall, which was the beginning of this school, basically, we repointed those stones, because they needed to be done. Have you been to Liberty Hall? Warren: Yes. Leggett: And I would like to see that be interpreted, that site be interpreted, with signage, and maybe a small—you know, they've be excavating there. Maybe some kind of a little small center, interpretation center. Now, I don't mean a museum, but I think that is the beginning of this school, and I'd like to see that area really appreciated. So I'm going to work with that some day soon. That's on my wish list. Warren: So what do you think it's going to be like leaving the board? Leggett: Oh, it'll be dreadful, dreadful. I will come back from time to time, because trustee emeritus do come back. And I'll stay involved. I'll raise money if they want me to. Warren: Oh, I'm sure they want you to. [Laughter] Leggett: That's sort of ongoing. And I'll stay in contact. Alumni College is a good way to do that. And I have friends here, you know, who mean a lot. Warren: I know you are very well thought of. When I told people I was going to be talking with you, they said— Leggett: Well, everybody you will interview is well thought of. Every board member is well thought of. Warren: Well, you got a sparkle from people, though, that not everybody got. Leggett: Oh, that was sweet. I know there are lots of things I'm going to forget that I haven't told you. Warren: Well, it's been a real mission of mine to make sure we include the women in this book, because, you know, the vast majority of the history of this school is a man's school. Leggett: Sure. 33 Warren: But a lot of women have been very important to this place, and as the years go by, we're going to have more and more and more on they. Leggett: Sure. Warren: So this book I'm preparing, I hope will have a long shelf life, and I want women to see themselves in this book and feel comfortable with this book. Leggett: Are you going to interview Mary Tyler Cheek at all? Warren: Her name has not been suggested. Leggett: Well, they gave Skylark, you know, to the university. Warren: Okay, now I recognize the name. Leggett: I don't know whether you have a place where—Skylark is pretty spectacular. Have you been up there, Mame? Warren: I haven't. Leggett: Oh, we've got to get you up there. You've got to go in the fall when the leaves change. It is one fabulous place. I think if I had to name great ladies in the state of Virginia, she would be on top of the list. Warren: Really? Leggett: She's a very bright—she's done it all. She's had every position. She really is remarkable, and it might be fun to talk to her. I don't know how old Mary Tyler is. The board met in Alexandria, and we went to Christ Church, which was where Lee was confirmed. He wasn't confirmed until he was forty. And she gave the loveliest talk, without a note. Her father was Douglas Southall Freeman. And she has a love of this school, and had she been younger, she would have been on this board. Warren: And where does she live? Leggett: She lives in Richmond, Virginia, so that's not too far from here. Warren: No, and I'm going to be seeing people there. Leggett: Ask Jim Whitehead. Of course, Frank Parsons knows her. Ask Farris Hotchkiss. She's now McClenahan. Her husband died. Mr. Cheek died, and she married 34 a man that she knew early on in her life. It's Mary Tyler McClennahan, and I am a real fan. Warren: Well, I will certainly ask Farris about her. Leggett: And, of course, Jinx Holton is a pistol. You'll have to interview her. She's very bright. I was just trying to think of one more. Of course, there are lots of women behind these husbands, too. Warren: I want to thank you for spending this time today. I've really enjoyed it. Leggett: You're so welcome. Can't wait to get your book. Warren: Oh, I can't wait either. But I'm having too much fun doing it. I don't want to rush it too much. Leggett: You'll have fun in the making of it, too. Warren: I am, I am. [End of Interview] 35